Re: Vitamin B-12

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Re: Vitamin B-12 - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgedes$8j$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <PRwWa.30179$Mc.2355788@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:

> What is NAP and where is the site?
.........See my original post.

> }.......Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
> }iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
> }cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.
>
> I would think that that the foods I descibed above are high in iron.

............But do you know for sure? Check the USDA Nutrient Database to
make sure.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodco.../SR15/sr15.html

> }I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine,
L-carnitine,
> }arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables.
This
> }is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
> }acid profile appropriate to the species.
>
> My dog has had calcium oxalate uroliths and is supposed to be on a low
> protein, low oxalate, alkaline diet.

......Yes, but low protein doesn't necessarily mean vegetarian. If you are
doing a vegan diet (no eggs either???), you must be careful. And you'd
definiately need to supplement some amino acids. If you've been feeding
low protein and/or vegan diet for a while, it might be the source of the
bile sludge problems.

.......Perhaps you could email this woman, who managed to dissolve calcium
oxalate stones in her dogs: http://www.lesliebean.net/petnutrition.html I
don't have the faintest idea of what the diet is.

.........This is not necessarily new news, but a good population of certain
GI bacterial flora can help with calcium oxalate problems. Has your dog
been on antibiotics? Does he get to play in the dirt? This may not so much
be a problem with dogs, but cats whose feet never touch the ground and have
rounds of antibiotics may not get re-exposed to these organisms:
http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/
http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/News.html
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/li...2.2003.00634.x/
abs/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...=PubMed&list_ui
ds=12678863&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...=PubMed&list_ui
ds=10541258&dopt=Abstract
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...gi?artid=124017

Speedyvet on functional foods:
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningce...3functional.htm

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

>Good luck with Max
>buglady
>take out the dog before replying
>
Dear Buglady,

Can you help me make sense of these units?

TABLE 2 Required Minimum Concentrations of Available Nutrients in Dog Food
Formulated for Growth

Nutrient
Per 1,000 kcal ME Dry Basis (3.67 kcal ME/g)

as listed here:

http://books.nap.edu/books/03090349...44.html#pagetop

I would need to understand the above to estimate the amino acids
my dog needs.

Thanks,

--Marshall

buglady

"Amy Dahl" <amy@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3F2C157D.E03145C1@oakhillkennel.com...
> Don't forget that the quantity of a nutrient in the food is not
> necessarily the same as its bioavailability (a point Strombeck
> repeats).

...Yes, absolutely. A point I am hoping that the new NRC book addresses, as
they have been lamenting about it for years - the lack of information about
bioavailability of nutrients on dog food bags. Even their old studies did
not address this issue as in many cases the dogs were given pure nutrients,
not food. Serving a variety of food stuffs can cover some of the problem,
but if one is feeding the same fixed diet day in and day out and it is
lacking, it can be a problem.

>probably iron in a supplement, iron in vegetable sources, and iron in meat
> are not all used equally well.

From Small ANimal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Ed
Because of the limited capacity of the body to excrete iron, iron
homeostasis is maintained primarily by adjusting iron absorption. Iron in
foods exists in two forms:
heme iron present in hemoglobin and myoglobin (animal source)
Nonheme iron present in grains and plant sources.
Heme iron absorption is not greatly affected by iron status or other dietary
factors. (Two exceptions are meat - which enhances heme iron absorption,
and calcium - which inhibits heme and nonheme iron absorption.) In contrast
to absorption of heme iron, absorption of nonheme iron is markedly
influenced by iron status and by several dietary factors such as phytate,
tannins, and excesses of calcium phosphorus, manganese, zinc, copper and
ascorbic acid.

Fiber can also inhibit some mineral uptake.
Phytates and fiber: http://www.worldchat.com/~kevink/grains.htm

Marshall, I hope you remember that nutrition is an infant science. What was
held to be true 3 years ago has often been superceded by new information.
The diet your dog is on is a starting point, nothing more. It is up to you
in conjunction with your vet to make sure that the food has all of the amino
acids essential to a dog. If you are not feeding egg or dairy and no meat,
I really don't see how this diet is sufficient without supplementation.
There are veterinary nutritionists you could consult. Personally I've never
read Strombeck's book and do not know the complete diet you are feeding. I
hope he has at least provided an analysis for some essential nutrients of
his recipes.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Amy Dahl

Not a direct response to buglady's post--but her post did
motivate me to pick up Strombeck and reread the section. I
note that he cautions that excess vitamin D must be avoided,
as vitamin D plays a role in calcium uptake, and that
vitamin C can be converted to oxalate so an excess of it
must be avoided as well.

This would argue against a "more is better, just in case"
approach to the multivitamin.

I get the impression that while many of the diets in the
book have been thoroughly tested and demonstrated to be
complete, either in his practice or at the vet teaching
hospital, this one is based on the work of others.

Buglady, I was looking to see what Strombeck says about
taurine and found something intriguing. Cats, as we know,
cannot synthesize it in sufficient quantities--but in addition
to heart problems, deficiency can cause central retinal
degeneration. Ding ding (the sound of a bell ringing).
In Labrador retrievers, there is an odd phenomenon--an
eye disorder known as CPRA (central progressive retinal
atrophy) occurs, but only in the British isles. Could it
be diet-related? Insufficient sulfur-containing amino
acids, from which taurine is made?

I wonder if I need to call my ophthalmologist on this one....

Amy Dahl

Marshall Dermer

In article <YiYWa.31564$Mc.2486787@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:

}
}Marshall, I hope you remember that nutrition is an infant science. What was
}held to be true 3 years ago has often been superceded by new information.
}The diet your dog is on is a starting point, nothing more. It is up to you
}in conjunction with your vet to make sure that the food has all of the amino
} acids essential to a dog. If you are not feeding egg or dairy and no meat,
}I really don't see how this diet is sufficient without supplementation.
}There are veterinary nutritionists you could consult.

Where are they?

Personally I've never
}read Strombeck's book and do not know the complete diet you are feeding. I
}hope he has at least provided an analysis for some essential nutrients of
}his recipes.

I must say, I face quite a task using those tables to figure out
what he is getting and comparing it to what he needs.

I do want to supplement the diet or find another one that is
appropriate for a dog disposed to calcium oxalate stones. My major
concern about the Hills U/D diet is that so many of the calories
come from fat.

What is the relation between amino acids and oxalates?

Thanks,

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

In article <v7bXa.130600$Io.11115440@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>
>"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>news:bgj8hl$1os$1@uwm.edu...
>> In article <tu6Xa.31937$Mc.2537484@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>"buglady"
> >>What does your vet say about this diet? Anything?
>>
>> Not much given that an internist with years of experience formulated the
>> diet.
>
>...Uh huh, that's passing the buck. If the vet has no direct experience
>feeding this diet to his clients, or does not know what it consists of, that
>is just not very helpful IMHO.

I am coming to the conclusion that I do not have the skills to deal
with this.

Here are my thoughts.

1. I would like a diet that addresses the calcium oxalate issue. One
clear factor in avoiding the stones is for the animal to consume
much water. That can be achieved by hydrating the food. Is it
sufficient? I don't know. There is also a large body of evidence
indicating that low protein, low NaCl, alkaline diets are helpful.
They used to think that low calcium was helpful but in the case
of humans that does not appear to be true.

2. Then we have the problem of mysterious attacks. We really don't
have a diagnosis. So far, 32 days have gone by without an attack
(that is a record for the past 4 months). The vet thinks Max's problem
has something to do with the gall bladder or liver. Another vet
questioned the high fat levels in Canine U/D. The attacks
began after my dog was on the Canine U/D for 4 months.

Who can figure out cause and effect here? So, I thought
switching diets would help and Strombeck's book was
brought to my attention. (Thanks Amy.) Because it is a home made
diet, I can easily manipulate the fat levels.

3. This morning, I decided to compare Strombeck's diet for
calcium oxalate stones with the NRC tables. I used the
values from the USDA nutritonal data base. I could only
compare the values for vitamins and minerals because I
can't figure out the required minimum concentrations for
amino acids.

What did I discover? Well when there was a huge discrepancy
it was because I had used the wrong number! Beyond that
there were discrepancies and I am not in a good position
to evaluate them. I believe that excesses in fat soluble
vitamins is a problem but not so for water soluble vitamins.

There are other companies besides Hills that makes diets
for calcium oxalate stones. One diet is may by IVD (Heinz).
I would be interested in the fat concentration of that
diet but can't find it listed on the web. Apparently,
only vets can access this information. :-(

I guess I can ask my vet to do this.

I love my dog and I am rather exhausted by the entire process.

Thanks,

--Marshall

buglady

"Amy Dahl" <amy@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3F2D1460.2672F977@oakhillkennel.com...
UC Davis:
> > http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/vmth/se...rition/faq.html
> >
> Just to connect the dots, this appears to be the program in
> which Strombeck's diets originated. It might be a good source
> to find out if the recommendations for preventing oxalate
> stones have been updated since 1999.

.......Absolutely. Books are a great starting point, but even while they're
being typeset there's new info available that is not in them. There is no
*fault* in this, but only means that further checking must be done on the
facts.
>
> Strombeck's book adds a dimension to the diets available from
> VMTH--in his private practice he supervised many patients
> that were on them for periods of years. Feeding trials, in
> effect. The diets themselves, according to the website and
> the book, are formulated by computer. My gut feeling, however,
> is that he did not have a large database of patients on the
> low-oxalate diet.

.........And I wonder how long he had them on this diet? Some of the Hill's
kidney diets are NOT suitable for year in year out feeding.
>
> Buglady, note that while amino acids identified as essential to
> cats are absent from vegetarian diets, the shorter list deemed
> essential to dogs are all present.

........Well, OK, if you know for a fact that the diet Marshall is feeding
has all of the AAs necessary, that's good. Remember, though that they are
calling taurine conditionally essential these days for dogs and there's
definitely no taurine in this diet. And taurine is often recommended for
gall bladder troubles, even in humans as it conjugates bile acids and even
helps take toxins out of the system. Taurine is found in eggs, fish, meat
and milk.
from Prescription for Nutritional Healing (people):
It can be synthsized from cysteine (a relative of cystine - one cystine
molecule consists of 2 molecules of cysteine) in the liver (don't know if
this is true for dogs) and from methionine elsewhere in the body, as long as
sufficient quantities of Vit B6 are present. For vegetarians, synthesis by
the body is crucial.

Small An Clin Nutrtion also lists glutamine/glutamate as important. They
say it was assumed that these two were able to be stored and synthesized to
meet the needs of the body, but now they're not positive, especially in
stress situations. And I suspect if this book wasn't 3 years old, they'd be
listing L-carnitine also.

PS to Marshall - olive oil has absolutely no omega 3 fatty acids - I'd be
adding flax or salmon oil to the diet:
http://www.curezone.com/foods/fatspercent.asp There are omega 3s in some
meats and fish, but not in the veg world, except for seeds.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Amy Dahl

Hey, Marshall, do you have access to Science Citations or whatever
is the analogous publication covering veterinary nutritional
research? If so, you could look up the cites Strombeck gives
for the black-eyed pea diet, see who has referenced them, and
thus find the most current information on feeding to prevent
oxalate stones. And lay this particular discussion to rest.

Amy (in a small burg far from a university)

buglady wrote:
>
> "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
> news:bgj8hl$1os$1@uwm.edu...
> > In article <tu6Xa.31937$Mc.2537484@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
> "buglady"
> >>What does your vet say about this diet? Anything?
> >
> > Not much given that an internist with years of experience formulated the
> > diet.
>
> ...Uh huh, that's passing the buck. If the vet has no direct experience
> feeding this diet to his clients, or does not know what it consists of, that
> is just not very helpful IMHO.
>
> buglady
> take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

Yes, that is a good idea. Thanks! --Marshall

In article <3F2D4FD0.FA89FA08@oakhillkennel.com> Amy Dahl <amy@oakhillkennel.com> writes:
>Hey, Marshall, do you have access to Science Citations or whatever
>is the analogous publication covering veterinary nutritional
>research? If so, you could look up the cites Strombeck gives
>for the black-eyed pea diet, see who has referenced them, and
>thus find the most current information on feeding to prevent
>oxalate stones. And lay this particular discussion to rest.
>
>Amy (in a small burg far from a university)
>
>buglady wrote:
>>
>> "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>> news:bgj8hl$1os$1@uwm.edu...
>> > In article <tu6Xa.31937$Mc.2537484@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>> "buglady"
>> >>What does your vet say about this diet? Anything?
>> >
>> > Not much given that an internist with years of experience formulated the
>> > diet.
>>
>> ...Uh huh, that's passing the buck. If the vet has no direct experience
>> feeding this diet to his clients, or does not know what it consists of, that
>> is just not very helpful IMHO.
>>
>> buglady
>> take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

In article <n4cXa.130630$Io.11119923@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:

}........And I wonder how long he had them on this diet? Some of the Hill's
}kidney diets are NOT suitable for year in year out feeding.
}}
}} Buglady, note that while amino acids identified as essential to
}} cats are absent from vegetarian diets, the shorter list deemed
}} essential to dogs are all present.
}
}.......Well, OK, if you know for a fact that the diet Marshall is feeding
}has all of the AAs necessary, that's good. Remember, though that they are
}calling taurine conditionally essential these days for dogs and there's
}definitely no taurine in this diet. And taurine is often recommended for
}gall bladder troubles, even in humans as it conjugates bile acids and even
}helps take toxins out of the system. Taurine is found in eggs, fish, meat
}and milk.

As I wrote before, I am rather exhausted by all this. One approach we
are going to take while we figure this out is to feed 50% of Max's
diet from the Hills U/D and 50% from the Strombeck diet. The Hill's
U/D diet lists many of the ingredients that concern Buglady. My plan
is to eliminate the oil from Strombeck's diet. That would mean that
Max would be getting half of the fat calories in the Hills U/D. Of
course, he would be getting 1/2 of everything too.

}from Prescription for Nutritional Healing (people):
}It can be synthsized from cysteine (a relative of cystine - one cystine
}molecule consists of 2 molecules of cysteine) in the liver (don't know if
}this is true for dogs) and from methionine elsewhere in the body, as long as
}sufficient quantities of Vit B6 are present. For vegetarians, synthesis by
}the body is crucial.
}
}Small An Clin Nutrtion also lists glutamine/glutamate as important. They
}say it was assumed that these two were able to be stored and synthesized to
}meet the needs of the body, but now they're not positive, especially in
}stress situations. And I suspect if this book wasn't 3 years old, they'd be
}listing L-carnitine also.
}
}PS to Marshall - olive oil has absolutely no omega 3 fatty acids - I'd be
}adding flax or salmon oil to the diet:
}http://www.curezone.com/foods/fatspercent.asp There are omega 3s in some
}meats and fish, but not in the veg world, except for seeds.

Max is supposed to be on a low Vitamin D diet. I could not find levels
for D for the oils above at

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

In article <bgjmr2$tf9$1@uwm.edu> dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) writes:
}
}Yes, that is a good idea. Thanks! --Marshall
}
}
}In article <3F2D4FD0.FA89FA08@oakhillkennel.com} Amy Dahl <amy@oakhillkennel.com} writes:
}}Hey, Marshall, do you have access to Science Citations or whatever
}}is the analogous publication covering veterinary nutritional
}}research? If so, you could look up the cites Strombeck gives
}}for the black-eyed pea diet, see who has referenced them, and
}}thus find the most current information on feeding to prevent
}}oxalate stones. And lay this particular discussion to rest.

He cites work by Jody Lulich at the University of Minnesota.
Jody says that the single most important intervention is
making certain the urine is dilute by having your dog consume
much water. Alkaline urine is also helpful as is low NaCl. Stromberg
discusses most of these points.

Max was not a big drinker. Ever since his surgery we have
hydrated his food whether it be Purina Beneful or Hills Canine
U/D. The Stromberg pea/rice diet is loaded with water.

Right now I think the 1/2 Canine U/D 1/2 Stromberg diet
is the best compromise.

--Marshall

}}
}}Amy (in a small burg far from a university)
}}
}}buglady wrote:
}}}
}}} "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu} wrote in message
}}} news:bgj8hl$1os$1@uwm.edu...
}}} } In article <tu6Xa.31937$Mc.2537484@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net}
}}} "buglady"
}}} }}What does your vet say about this diet? Anything?
}}} }
}}} } Not much given that an internist with years of experience formulated the
}}} } diet.
}}}
}}} ...Uh huh, that's passing the buck. If the vet has no direct experience
}}} feeding this diet to his clients, or does not know what it consists of, that
}}} is just not very helpful IMHO.
}}}
}}} buglady
}}} take out the dog before replying
}
}

GAUBSTER2

>........And I wonder how long he had them on this diet? Some of the Hill's
>kidney diets are NOT suitable for year in year out feeding.

buglady, please elaborate. Are you talking k/d or something else? g/d....u/d,
what? And under what conditions? I know you don't like anything Hill's does,
but I'm interested as to why you would drop a comment such as this?

Marshall Dermer

Here you go!! $100 for a consult and diet from a veterinary nutritionist!

http://www.petdiets.com/

--Marshall

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgjnv0$72i$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <n4cXa.130630$Io.11119923@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>As I wrote before, I am rather exhausted by all this. One approach we
>are going to take while we figure this out is to feed 50% of Max's
>diet from the Hills U/D and 50% from the Strombeck diet.

.........Why don't you just get ahold of Strombeck and ask if he would
recommend any changess in the diet at all? Don't be shy! I once called a
vet I'd read about in a book who had done some experimenting with melatonin
for mast cell cancer and he actually talked to me!

> }PS to Marshall - olive oil has absolutely no omega 3 fatty acids - I'd be
> }adding flax or salmon oil to the diet:
> }http://www.curezone.com/foods/fatspercent.asp There are omega 3s in
some
> }meats and fish, but not in the veg world, except for seeds.
>
> Max is supposed to be on a low Vitamin D diet. I could not find levels
> for D for the oils above at

Samon oil is a body oil, not from the liver, which would have Vit D. Flax
oil is from a seed, as are the rest of the oils listed on the above site,
including olive, so there's no Vit D in them. Cod liver oil has both Vit A
and D and is one not to add to diet unless diet is lacking in these two
vitamins. So don't stress yourself out about that aspect. These are
essential fatty acids, that's all.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

In article <ErwXa.33353$Mc.2654948@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>Samon oil is a body oil, not from the liver, which would have Vit D. Flax
>oil is from a seed, as are the rest of the oils listed on the above site,
>including olive, so there's no Vit D in them. Cod liver oil has both Vit A
>and D and is one not to add to diet unless diet is lacking in these two
>vitamins. So don't stress yourself out about that aspect. These are
>essential fatty acids, that's all.
>
>buglady
>take out the dog before replying
>

Thanks,

--Marshall

Evelyn Usher

I> >
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Marshall
>
Hi there,

What oil would you recommend for my girls to have on their cooked chicken
and rice? I have been using olive.

--
Evelyn in Scotland

Marshall Dermer

Three cheers for Buglady who was concerned that my dog was
receiving insufficient omega-3 fatty oils on his current diet.
She is/was right! I had substituted olive oil for canola oil.
The Stromberg text read something like: "vegetable (canola) oil."

http://www.threedog.com/pawticulars/ingred_canola.shtml

Many thanks!

--Marshall

Suja

Marshall Dermer wrote:

> Three cheers for Buglady who was concerned that my dog was
> receiving insufficient omega-3 fatty oils on his current diet.
> She is/was right! I had substituted olive oil for canola oil.
> The Stromberg text read something like: "vegetable (canola) oil."
>
> http://www.threedog.com/pawticulars/ingred_canola.shtml

Darn, I lent my Strombeck to someone else. You're saying that you were
adding olive oil instead of the canola oil that he recommended? If he
meant canola oil, why didn't he just say it instead of using a more
generic 'vegetable oil'?

I have to let my friend who borrowed the book know about this sort of
stuff. Her boy has lupus (tests inconclusive, but meds work), and
possibly some stomach issues as well as allergies, and she is looking to
see if she can use a home made diet to control some of his issues rather
than putting him on a life long course of nasty meds.

Suja

Melanie L Chang

Suja (spanaval@scs.gmu.edu) wrote:

: Darn, I lent my Strombeck to someone else. You're saying that you were
: adding olive oil instead of the canola oil that he recommended? If he
: meant canola oil, why didn't he just say it instead of using a more
: generic 'vegetable oil'?

Probably because the other standard "vegetable" oils we use in cooking
have omega-3 in them (soy, corn, etc.). I think there is something in
there about not making substitutions.

I've gotten sort of anal about diets, because I have been preparing a lot
of my dogs' food at home lately. As a quick and dirty exercise I've been
using the USDA nutrient database, the NRC requirements, and Excel to put
together nutritional analyses of different menus. I don't trust myself
to formulate a diet that I can feed long-term, because there are
undoubtedly complexities that I, with no nutritional training, am not
cognizant of. BUT it's a great learning exercise, I've become much more
aware of what exactly is in different foods, and I've become very
frightened for my friends' dogs who are on thrown-together "BARF" diets
that, from my analyses anyway, are barely meeting a number of the
necessarily nutritional requirements.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows function.
Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
mlchang@sas.upenn.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suja

Melanie L Chang wrote

> cognizant of. BUT it's a great learning exercise, I've become much more
> aware of what exactly is in different foods, and I've become very
> frightened for my friends' dogs who are on thrown-together "BARF" diets
> that, from my analyses anyway, are barely meeting a number of the
> necessarily nutritional requirements.

Are these BARFers putting together the diet based on advice from books,
newsgroups, etc. or just sort of making it up as they go along? It
sounds a heck of a lot like the latter, and an easy way to seriously
jeopardize their dogs' health. Have you said anything to them about this?

Suja

Amy Dahl

Suja wrote:
>
> Marshall Dermer wrote:
>
> > Three cheers for Buglady who was concerned that my dog was
> > receiving insufficient omega-3 fatty oils on his current diet.
> > She is/was right! I had substituted olive oil for canola oil.
> > The Stromberg text read something like: "vegetable (canola) oil."
> >
> > http://www.threedog.com/pawticulars/ingred_canola.shtml
>
> Darn, I lent my Strombeck to someone else. You're saying that you were
> adding olive oil instead of the canola oil that he recommended? If he
> meant canola oil, why didn't he just say it instead of using a more
> generic 'vegetable oil'?
>
> I have to let my friend who borrowed the book know about this sort of
> stuff. Her boy has lupus (tests inconclusive, but meds work), and
> possibly some stomach issues as well as allergies, and she is looking to
> see if she can use a home made diet to control some of his issues rather
> than putting him on a life long course of nasty meds.
>
I would give the book a close reading before drawing conclusions about
omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids. Strombeck is skeptical of the value
of omega-3 supplementation. He says that while there is evidence that
omega-3 fatty acids potentiate the formation of less potent, rather than
more potent, leukotrienes (a class of mediators of inflammation), this
shift also decreases protection of the intestinal mucosa, which can
result in more inflammation and problems related to it. Note that the
intestinal mucosa exists in a state of "physiological inflammation,"
that is, the immune system is active in order to deal with the
contents of the intestine, which are full of material foreign to the
body.

Strombeck considers it an unjustified jump to conclude that promoting
the more weakly inflammation-promoting leukotrienes benefits
inflammatory conditions. As a scientist who has observed many such
jumps, I take the possibility seriously. Strombeck points out that
the fish oil that is a source of omega-3 acids is highly unsaturated
and requires large quantities of antioxidants to protect against
spoilage and formation of toxic products. In the studies he
references on the effects of fish oil on various conditions, the
antioxidant used is vitamin E. Large doses of vitamin E are known
to be beneficial in all of the conditions studied.

Now, as has been pointed out, research is ongoing and Strombeck's book
was published in 1999. There may be more recent, conclusive evidence
of the benefits of omega-3 acids, or it may be the case that more
recent results do not provide any more justification for omega-3
supplementation than those he summarizes. It is up to us to make up
our own decisions--but I recommend being skeptical. Recognize the
vested interest some sources have in promoting particular conclusions,
and the strong tendency of many on the boundaries of scientific
endeavor to take results having limited scope and apply them more
broadly than is justified.

Amy Dahl

buglady

"Suja" <spanaval@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:3F2FBB9A.6050608@scs.gmu.edu...
If he
> meant canola oil, why didn't he just say it instead of using a more
> generic 'vegetable oil'?

Personally I wouldn't use canola oil for anything except to oil hinges.
http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/conola.html

As a source of fat in a diet, I think even corn oil would be better than
canola. Dogs do have a requirement for Linoleic acid. Dogs can use
saturated fat. In fact many of the diets they make up to use in research
have lard in them. Olive oil is fine, it just lacks omega 3s. Most diets,
humans and dogs, have plenty of omega 6s, which come from meat. In
Marshall's case, since he's using a veg diet, he could use both 3s and 6s.
Personally I'd stick with the olive and add flax oil (which has omega 3, 6 &
9) or salmon oil. Vit E should be added to the diet when giving large
amounts of EFAs.

There's a great deal of good info at speedyvet:
Fats
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningce...ional.htm#FLUTD
Clinical Nutrition Library:
http://www.speedyvet.com/NIP/default.htm
Index to their Learning module on nutrition:
http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningcentre/index1.htm

And then there's the poop chart...heh heh!:
http://www.speedyvet.com/tools/3516...20Assmnt_A4.pdf

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Melanie L Chang

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Suja (spanaval@scs.gmu.edu) wrote:

: Are these BARFers putting together the diet based on advice from books,
: newsgroups, etc. or just sort of making it up as they go along? It
: sounds a heck of a lot like the latter, and an easy way to seriously
: jeopardize their dogs' health. Have you said anything to them about this?

They make it up as they go along because it's a "no brainer" and they're
following the "prey model" and if they're "capable of feeding myself I
should be capable of feeding a dog."

I think dogs are capable of adapting to almost anything, but it certainly
defeats the purpose of attempting to feed a more optimal diet.

I don't say anything anymore. Have you ever had to have such a
discussion with a true-believer?

The biggest mistake I've seen is feeding nothing but bony chicken refuse
parts (like necks and back) with no other meat and nothing else but
veggie slop. Some of these people don't even believe in multivitamins.
Don't get me wrong, there are many people who are very careful, even
obsessive about how they put together a diet, but there are also a lot of
idiots out there feeding what they think is a "natural" diet.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows function.
Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
mlchang@sas.upenn.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suja

Melanie L Chang wrote:

> They make it up as they go along because it's a "no brainer" and they're
> following the "prey model" and if they're "capable of feeding myself I
> should be capable of feeding a dog."

OY! The base asssumption that they would somehow know intuitively how
to feed themselves a balanced and nutritional diet is false, as is the
assumption that they would know how to feed a dog or any other critter
on the planet for that matter. Don't they realize that there are such
things as nutritionists for VERY good reasons?

> I think dogs are capable of adapting to almost anything, but it certainly
> defeats the purpose of attempting to feed a more optimal diet.

They are very forgiving critters, unfortunately.

> I don't say anything anymore. Have you ever had to have such a
> discussion with a true-believer?

I know only one RMBer in real life, a very young man, whose Pit has been
on it since he was a puppy. But, the guy had really done his homework,
and it was really nice to actually speak with him. But I do understand
the point you are trying to make. Do the vets know what is going on,
and have nothing to say?

Suja

shelly

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Suja wrote:

>Do the vets know what is going on, and have nothing to say?

they probably don't know. i have yet to have a vet ask me
what my dogs eat. the one time i asked for food advice
(elliott had lost quite a bit of weight one summer), i was
told not to worry about weight loss, that he was fine. when i
insisted, she told me i could feed him white bread to fatten
him up. uh-huh. and this was from a vet who i otherwise
really, really liked and trusted. i never asked her for
nutritional advice ever again.

--
shelly (foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

Marshall Dermer

As I wrote before, I find this exhausting. This morning, for example,
I bought a small bottle of Canola Oil. How much flax oil should I give
an 8 KG dog? Also how much Vitamin e?

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

In article <3F2FD9DC.81DDBDA8@oakhillkennel.com> Amy Dahl
<amy@oakhillkennel.com> writes:
>supplementation than those he summarizes. It is up to us to make up
>our own decisions--but I recommend being skeptical. Recognize the
>vested interest some sources have in promoting particular conclusions,
>and the strong tendency of many on the boundaries of scientific
>endeavor to take results having limited scope and apply them more
>broadly than is justified.
>
>Amy Dahl

OK Amy, which oils would you recommend for Max?

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

In article <bgp12a$ie$1@uwm.edu> dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) writes:
>In article <3F2FD9DC.81DDBDA8@oakhillkennel.com> Amy Dahl
><amy@oakhillkennel.com> writes:
>>supplementation than those he summarizes. It is up to us to make up
>>our own decisions--but I recommend being skeptical. Recognize the
>>vested interest some sources have in promoting particular conclusions,
>>and the strong tendency of many on the boundaries of scientific
>>endeavor to take results having limited scope and apply them more
>>broadly than is justified.
>>
>>Amy Dahl
>
>
>OK Amy, which oils would you recommend for Max?
>
>--Marshall

I just spent 10 min on Pubmed reviewing studies that have tested the effects
of canola oil. It has produced an increase in blood pressure and
a decrease in longevity in several animal models. :-(

So, I guess it is back to Olive oil and supplementation with
flax seed oil and Vitamin E. But how much of the later oils
should be used. Max now takes about 1/12 of a human vitamin.
So a first approximation might be 1/12 of the human dose
for flax seed oil and the RDA for Vitamin E.

Any help would be appreciated.

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

I now see that fish oils are low in Vitamin D. (Max is supposed to
be on a low Vitamin D diet.) So, I guess I could use fish oil (but
not liver oil!).

So if I supplement the olive oil, how much flaxseed oil, fish oil,
and Vitamin E should I use? Max weighs about 8 kgs.

Thanks,

--Marshall

Melanie L Chang

Marshall Dermer (dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:

: I just spent 10 min on Pubmed reviewing studies that have tested the effects
: of canola oil. It has produced an increase in blood pressure and
: a decrease in longevity in several animal models. :-(

Did you save the search perchance?

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows function.
Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
mlchang@sas.upenn.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rene

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgp0tn$tl8$1@uwm.edu...
> As I wrote before, I find this exhausting. This morning, for example,
> I bought a small bottle of Canola Oil. How much flax oil should I give
> an 8 KG dog? Also how much Vitamin e?
>
> --Marshall

Marshall,

I believe flax seed oil is somewhat high on the list for allergic reactions
(in dogs). My Roxy is allergic to it. I'm only posting this so you are
aware of it, in case your Max has any new problems. Be sure to keep oils in
the refrigerator.

Olive oil consists of omega 9's, which are not essential but have many
benefits. I give Roxy olive oil, salmon body oil, vitamin E (to prevent
rancidity) and cod liver oil in the winter. I only buy "Carlson's" brand as
they test for mercury levels (I'm sure there are others also).

Everyone,

Flax seed oil is very high in alpha linolenic acid (ALA). Can this cause
problems (in dogs) when feeding a low protein diet?

René

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgbv0d$nj5$1@uwm.edu...
> I'm trying to figure out how much Vitamin B-12 to give Max daily. He is
> on a vegitarian diet.

I think there must be confusion somewhere about the terms:
ug is microgram - also indicated as mcg
mg is milligram

.....If Max weighs about 8 kg he should get 4 mcg (micrograms) B12 per day.
It's water soluble, so unless you grossly overdose there shouldn't be a
problem.

Adapted from NRC Nutrient Req of Dogs, 1985
B12 - 0.5 micrograms/kg BW or 0.7 micrograms per 100 kcal of metabolizable
energy or 1.6 micrograms per megajoules
Whole text from above available free online at National Academy Press:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/15.html There's apparently a new combo dog/cat
version coming out in 2003, but may not be available free.

AAFCO Nutrient profiles for adult dog food (1999)
22 micrograms/kg dry food (presumes an energy density of 3.5 kcal ME/g dry
matter) or 0.6 micrograms per 100 kcal food or 1.5 micrograms per MJ

Canadian Vet Med Assn standards for adult dog food (1993)
.....same as AAFCO

Work from H. Meyer (German) who has published whole texts on nutrition for
animals:
Recommendations for daily nutrient intake of adult dogs
0.5 micrograms/kg body weight

........Better idea is to consult a compounding pharmacy and have them make a
vit for Max. I'd be worried about lack of iron myself. Liver is full of
both iron and B vits.

not that you'll read this, but maybe someone else can use the info
buglady
take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

In article <uZfWa.127598$Io.10826995@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>news:bgbv0d$nj5$1@uwm.edu...
}} I'm trying to figure out how much Vitamin B-12 to give Max daily. He is
}} on a vegitarian diet.
}
}I think there must be confusion somewhere about the terms:
}ug is microgram - also indicated as mcg
}mg is milligram
}
}....If Max weighs about 8 kg he should get 4 mcg (micrograms) B12 per day.
}It's water soluble, so unless you grossly overdose there shouldn't be a
}problem.

Yes, thanks! The units are wrong in my edition of Strombeck's Table 5.2.

}
}Adapted from NRC Nutrient Req of Dogs, 1985
}B12 - 0.5 micrograms/kg BW or 0.7 micrograms per 100 kcal of metabolizable
}energy or 1.6 micrograms per megajoules
}Whole text from above available free online at National Academy Press:
}http://www.nap.edu/catalog/15.html There's apparently a new combo dog/cat
}version coming out in 2003, but may not be available free.
}
}AAFCO Nutrient profiles for adult dog food (1999)
}22 micrograms/kg dry food (presumes an energy density of 3.5 kcal ME/g dry
}matter) or 0.6 micrograms per 100 kcal food or 1.5 micrograms per MJ
}
}Canadian Vet Med Assn standards for adult dog food (1993)
}....same as AAFCO
}
}Work from H. Meyer (German) who has published whole texts on nutrition for
}animals:
}Recommendations for daily nutrient intake of adult dogs
}0.5 micrograms/kg body weight
}
}.......Better idea is to consult a compounding pharmacy and have them make a
}vit for Max. I'd be worried about lack of iron myself. Liver is full of
}both iron and B vits.
}
}not that you'll read this, but maybe someone else can use the info
}buglady

Well, I did read your post! Thanks.

Max is on a black-eyed pea /brown rice diet plus bone meal, KCl, NaCl,
olive oil, and 1/10 of a vitamin for humans/day.

I don't think iron is a problem but B-12 is-->was.

--Marshall

GAUBSTER2

> I don't trust myself
>to formulate a diet that I can feed long-term, because there are
>undoubtedly complexities that I, with no nutritional training, am not
>cognizant of. BUT it's a great learning exercise, I've become much more
>aware of what exactly is in different foods, and I've become very
>frightened for my friends' dogs who are on thrown-together "BARF" diets
>that, from my analyses anyway, are barely meeting a number of the
>necessarily nutritional requirements.

That's one of the great risks of the barf diet and that's why I'm not very high
on it. I know that's sacriligious to many, but it's a fact. MOST (if not all)
barf or raw diets simply aren't nutritionally balanced.

GAUBSTER2

>From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2)
>Date: 8/3/03 4:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20030803192038.14676.00000898@mb-m02.aol.com>
>
>>........And I wonder how long he had them on this diet? Some of the Hill's
>>kidney diets are NOT suitable for year in year out feeding.
>
>buglady, please elaborate. Are you talking k/d or something else?
>g/d....u/d,
>what? And under what conditions? I know you don't like anything Hill's
>does,
>but I'm interested as to why you would drop a comment such as this?

buglady, your anti-Hill's bias is showing through! Are you ignoring the query
put to you? Or do you just not have any good reason for a comment like this?
You're posting all around this.

Marshall Dermer

In article <vj0cf0m45sh5ce@corp.supernews.com> "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> writes:
>Marshall,
>
>I believe flax seed oil is somewhat high on the list for allergic reactions
>(in dogs). My Roxy is allergic to it. I'm only posting this so you are
>aware of it, in case your Max has any new problems. Be sure to keep oils in
>the refrigerator.
>
>Olive oil consists of omega 9's, which are not essential but have many
>benefits. I give Roxy olive oil, salmon body oil, vitamin E (to prevent
>rancidity) and cod liver oil in the winter. I only buy "Carlson's" brand as
>they test for mercury levels (I'm sure there are others also).

OK.. we can do salmon oil and Vitamin E. Cod liver oil is to be avoided
in that it is a major source of Vitamin D. But what doses of salmon oil
and Vitamin E do you use. I also notice that plain fish oil is available
with an analysis similar to salmon oil.

Thanks very much for responding Rene!

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

In article <3F2FBB9A.6050608@scs.gmu.edu> Suja <spanaval@scs.gmu.edu> writes:
>Marshall Dermer wrote:
>
>> Three cheers for Buglady who was concerned that my dog was
>> receiving insufficient omega-3 fatty oils on his current diet.
>> She is/was right! I had substituted olive oil for canola oil.
>> The Stromberg text read something like: "vegetable (canola) oil."
>>
>> http://www.threedog.com/pawticulars/ingred_canola.shtml
>
>Darn, I lent my Strombeck to someone else. You're saying that you were
>adding olive oil instead of the canola oil that he recommended? If he
>meant canola oil, why didn't he just say it instead of using a more
>generic 'vegetable oil'?

Dear Suja,

As I recall "canola oil" was in parentheses.

--Marshall

Pennie

mlchang@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Melanie L Chang) said:

>The biggest mistake I've seen is feeding nothing but bony chicken refuse
>parts (like necks and back) with no other meat and nothing else but
>veggie slop.

LOL...exactly what I've been feeding my crew for about 2 years now.
Although my cancer girl gets ground chicken thighs (for the fat
content) added to her diet. There's plenty of meat in the fresh
chicken backs we feed...heck, they even have some of the organs left
in them. We don't buy our chicken from a grocery store, we get it
fresh from the farm.
Besides the "veggie slop" they also get either a little cottage cheese
or plain organic yoghurt in their bowels. Twice a week they get
canned salmon and/or sardines. They get absolutely no grains in their
diets.

> Some of these people don't even believe in multivitamins.

Mine get them daily for a month with a week or two off of them.

>Don't get me wrong, there are many people who are very careful, even
>obsessive about how they put together a diet, but there are also a lot of
>idiots out there feeding what they think is a "natural" diet.

I'm not obsessive about my dog's diets. I did my research and feed
what I (and a holistic vet) know is right for my pack. I've got a
shepherd mix who was given 6 months to live and we're going on a year
now (osteosarcoma). Yes, even with amputation and chemo we were given
6 months. I (and the vet's I work for who are not holistic) attribute
it to her natural diet and use of herbs/supplements. The hospital I
work at doesn't recommend raw diets, but they know what I feed and
don't give me crap about it.
I also have a Dalmatian who is prone to urinary crystals...haven't had
a problem since going raw...a choc. Lab with skin/ear problems who
hasn't had a problem since going to raw and am raising a Dachshund pup
on raw and having no problems at all.

Please don't label all raw feeders, or what they feed as "bad". It
works very well for a lot of us.

Pennie

Let Food Be Our Medicine.
-Hippocrates

Amy Dahl

Marshall Dermer wrote:
>
> Max supposedly needs .65*8 mg of iron per day or 5.2 mg. Per
> day he eats about 1/2 cup of cow peas that yields .9 mg of iron
> and 1.6 cups of brown rice that yields 1.6 mg, and about 1/10 of
> a human vitamin that yields 1.8 mg. So by these calculations he
> is getting about 4.3 mg of iron per day. Perhaps, I should increase
> the vitamin dose. I will have to check this out for other vitamins.
>
Don't forget that the quantity of a nutrient in the food is not
necessarily the same as its bioavailability (a point Strombeck
repeats). As a woman concerned with iron intake, I know some
forms (chelated) are thought to be absorbed more efficiently,
others less. Also I remember hearing that in humans, iron is
absorbed only in one portion of the digestive tract, so after
the mass of food has moved beyond that point, no more is
extracted.

The only parts of this I would extrapolate directly to dogs are
that probably more is eaten than is utilized, and probably iron
in a supplement, iron in vegetable sources, and iron in meat
are not all used equally well.

Amy Dahl

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgk8j3$ftg$1@uwm.edu...
> Here you go!! $100 for a consult and diet from a veterinary nutritionist!
>
> http://www.petdiets.com/

Due to storms every day (FL has more lightening strikes than any other
state) and having to turn off the computer and lawn mowing, this is a late
reply...and I've made a compliation of your posts:.

Get a consultation before you drive yourself nuts! I do not think I would
relish figuring out metabolizable energy per kcal of food. The point of
this was to check if everything was hunky dory. If you have doubts, then
call in the professionals.

>The vet thinks Max's problem
> has something to do with the gall bladder or liver. Another vet
> questioned the high fat levels in Canine U/D. The attacks
> began after my dog was on the Canine U/D for 4 months.

.......I've been wondering about Max's attacks. He never had these before
going on Hills U/D?? Are they sure it isn't pancreatitis attacks? If fat
is causing an attack and it's the gall bladder that means it's sludgy.
Eating less fat will keep it sludgy. I've run through spells of gall
bladder troubles and I can tell you what has helped clean out my gall
bladder the most - apple juice. I've even managed to move some gall stones
with just apple juice. OTOH if it's pancreatitis and the low fat level is
helping him, best to stick with it. At this point there's no way to know.
It really sounds more like pancreatitis to me as the fat level in U/D is
higher to make up for calories lost due to low protein. I'd compare fat
levels in U/d to what you used to feed before U/d. If he's never had these
attacks before and the fat was a lot less in your original feed, I'd stick
with lower fat. The vet diets for CaOx may not be appropriate then, as they
all seem to depend on a higher fat level. Making your own food, as you
said, gives you the opportunity to tailor a food to your dog, which is the
point of home food preparation. You're almost there, stick with it, just
get some help.

>This morning, I decided to compare Strombeck's diet for
> calcium oxalate stones with the NRC tables. I used the
>values from the USDA nutritonal data base. I could only
> compare the values for vitamins and minerals because I
> can't figure out the required minimum concentrations for
> amino acids.
..........I'd put this in the hands of a professional, but the NRC Minimum
Nutrient Requirements of Dogs are on page 44 in Table 1 (not 2!). They are
expressed as mg/kg of body weight of dog. The USDA Nutrient Database Tables
are expressed in grams. 1 gram = 1000 miligrams (mg) so to change the USDA
grams to the mg in the NRC, divide by 1000 (or move the decimal point over
3 places to the left). People who analyze diets have computer programs to
do this for them - much less tedious. ME (from table 2) is metabolizable
energy, which is another whole ball of wax.

Ran across this page - acid ash means that the higher the number the more
acidic the effect on the body - thus the urine will get acidic to keep the
body pH in balance. The lower the number the more alkaline the urine will
be: http://www.marinurology.com/article.../foods/acid.htm

And this tidbit from a human site:
A B-6 deficiency increases urinary oxalate, which leads to kidney stones;
but even in those who are not deficient, B-6 reduces urinary oxalate levels.

Prescription for Nutritional Healing (people) mentions zinc as an important
inhibitor of crystallization, which can lead to stone formation.

The above source also lists the foods which contain or lead to the
production of oxalic acid: asparagus, beet greens, beets, blueberries,
celery, eggs, fish, grapes, parsley, rhubarb, sorrel, spinach, Swiss chard
and the vegetables of the cabbage family.

A long story here about a dog with CaOx stones
http://www.macatawa.org/~wilcox_k/diet.html By the way, there's a comment
board at this site, and lots of people seem to complain that the Hills U/d
was rejected by their dogs.

Contents of Canned Hills U/d: They do add both taurine and L-carnitine and
Vit E. If
you want to look at the complete blurb start here:
http://www.hillspet.com/owner/owner...iption_diet.jsp
Water, chicken, egg products, corn starch, sucrose, rice, pork liver,
chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and, citric acid), chicken
liver flavor, fish oil, soy fiber, powdered cellulose, casein, taurine,
L-carnitine, minerals (potassium citrate, salt, calcium carbonate, ferrous
sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium
selenite), beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin D3 supplement,
vitamin E supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin, calcium pantothenate,
pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12
supplement).

A page on IVD diets - they do have one for CaOx stones - it's in the Select
Care Line and is called Modified - links to all other companies that make
vet diets are at bottom of page: http://www.prescriptiondiets.com/ino.html

This was from a Marvista Vet page on Allergies:
for those who need to know where they might purchase IVD diets, IVD has a
central telephone number: 1-800-466-0912. IVD can tell you what distributor
is local to your area so that your veterinarian can then order IVD diets for
you. IVD Diets are also available through www.VetCentric.com We (or your
regular vet) must approve a prescription with VetCentric.com for you to be
able to order this food for home delivery.

And this from the IVD site: For more in-depth technical information
regarding any IVD diet, please contact our Professional Services department
at 1-800-466-0912.
..........Don't be shy! If your vet does not carry these products tell these
people you are considering using their diet for CaOx stones and would like
to know what is in it, and what the analysis is as your dog has problems
with fat. See if they'll email you the info. If you live in a big enough
place, there might be other vets in town that carry it and they can order it
for you.

Below are from PubMed, just enter PMID number in search box to get abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

Res Vet Sci. 2003 Aug;75(1):33-41.
The relative effects of supplemental dietary calcium and oxalate on urine
composition and calcium oxalate relative supersaturation in healthy adult
dogs.
Stevenson AE, Hynds WK, Markwell PJ.
The WALTHAM Centre for Pet Nutrition, Waltham on the Wolds, Melton Mowbray,
Leicestershire LE14 4RT, UK.
PMID: 12801461

Stevenson AE, Hynds WK, Markwell PJ.
Effect of dietary moisture and sodium content on urine composition and
calcium oxalate relative supersaturation in healthy miniature schnauzers and
labrador retrievers.
Res Vet Sci. 2003 Apr;74(2):145-51.
PMID: 12589739

The conclusions of the 2 articles below are very interesting and seem to run
directly opposite of the low protein crowd. Might be worthwhile to track
down the second one WRT canned food::

Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich
LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.
Associations between dry dietary factors and canine calcium oxalate
uroliths.
Am J Vet Res. 2002 Mar;63(3):330-7.
PMID: 11911566

Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich
LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.
Associations between dietary factors in canned food and formation of
calcium oxalate uroliths in dogs.
Am J Vet Res. 2002 Feb;63(2):163-9.
PMID: 11843112

Protecting the kidney with anti-oxidants
Thamilselvan S, Byer KJ, Hackett RL, Khan SR.
Free radical scavengers, catalase and superoxide dismutase provide
protection from oxalate-associated injury to LLC-PK1 and MDCK cells.
J Urol. 2000 Jul;164(1):224-9.
PMID: 10840464

Kim HH, Kwak C, Jeong BC, Kim SW.
Effect of oxalate on the growth of renal tubular epithelial cells.
J Endourol. 2002 May;16(4):261-4.
PMID: 12042112
---------------------------------------------

...........I've sort of gotten dizzy following this thread, but to summarize:

Personally I'd send an email to Strombeck or the U of Cal Davis place that
formulated this diet and ask for any updates - with particular reference to
taurine, L-carnitine, Vit E and essential fatty acids when using olive oil
(if
that's what you're going to stick with). And ask if thinking has changed
any WRT CaOx stones and diet. (He published this diet in a book, he should
be happy to provide updates. This is not the same as publishing a chocolate
chip cookie recipe in a cookbook for people!) See if he can send you an
analysis of the diet if he has one.

I'd get a consult with a nutritionist and ask the same questions and also
ask if it would be beneficial to add a B50 complex to the diet. Since you
already have to add B12 and there is a chance B6 might help, it makes sense
to me. B vitamins are water soluble, which means the body doesn't store
them anywhere. They are essential to almost all metabolic processes in the
body, so I always view it as cheap insurance. Bs sort of need to be in
balance with each other, so perhaps it might be best to add a whole B
complex rather than supplement separate ones. Plus some are used faster in
stress situations. Also mention the gall bladder/pancreatitis??? situation
and ask for low fat diet. I'd also ask about zinc sufficiency in the diet
and what level can be fed without harm if supplementation is appropriate.
(Keep in mind that the values listed in the NRC are minimums, not maximums.)

.......When adding any supplements to a diet, always start out at 1/4 or 1/2
dose, then wait a couple of days, then increase a little, wait a couple of
days, then give full dose. If everthing is OK, add next thing and do it in
the same manner. This is because different dogs can react differently to
various things. Someone mentioned allergies to flax oil - sure it can
happen - same with fish. How it affects your dog is the most important
thing and there's no way to predict.

Dosages: Vit E
Earl Mindell's suggestions: small dog 100 IU daily
Cheryl Schwartz, DVM - ~ 50 IU daily small dog/cat

These are probably from Dr. Clemmons (U. of FL) (at least they were before
they rearranged the website), but there really isn't much in the way of
dosage
suggestions:
http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/Alt_med...graph/mono.html

Flax oil: Can't give you an exact measurement - I'd give no more than 1/4
tsp to start, maybe work up to 1/2 tsp.

.......To get Max to drink more, try offering him homemade broth. Boil some
chicken breast (no skin, bones OK) to death. Strain, toss solids, cool,
defat (put in fridge until fat solid and scoop off) and you can even water
it down a lot. Offer several times a day. Most animals really like it.
Also, don't know if you've already done this, but best to offer distilled
water.

...........That's all I can think of. If Max is doing well on this diet,
digesting it OK, no problems that you can see, all you have to do is to
tweak it WRT some of the things that might be out of balance. Totally
unbalanced diets are fed as allergy elimination diets for 3 months I think,
so you're not killing your dog by feeding this diet temporarily. Ideally
your vet should be able to tell you how much Vit E, etc. to use, but I've
never run across many vets that can really discuss diet/nutritional needs of
dogs.

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Rene

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgpepl$fkp$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <vj0cf0m45sh5ce@corp.supernews.com> "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com>
writes:
> >Marshall,
> >
> >I believe flax seed oil is somewhat high on the list for allergic
reactions
> >(in dogs). My Roxy is allergic to it. I'm only posting this so you are
> >aware of it, in case your Max has any new problems. Be sure to keep oils
in
> >the refrigerator.
> >
> >Olive oil consists of omega 9's, which are not essential but have many
> >benefits. I give Roxy olive oil, salmon body oil, vitamin E (to prevent
> >rancidity) and cod liver oil in the winter. I only buy "Carlson's" brand
as
> >they test for mercury levels (I'm sure there are others also).
>
> OK.. we can do salmon oil and Vitamin E. Cod liver oil is to be avoided
> in that it is a major source of Vitamin D. But what doses of salmon oil
> and Vitamin E do you use. I also notice that plain fish oil is available
> with an analysis similar to salmon oil.

I did not mean to scare you away from flax seed oil. Many people have good
experiences with it.

On the doses, this website is a good start:
http://b-naturals.com/product_info.php?products_id=128
&
http://b-naturals.com/product_info.php?products_id=83

Lew Olson, the site owner, is a raw food advocate. Even so, you may find
what she has to say about vegetarian diets for dogs interesting:
http://b-naturals.com/Aug2003.php

>
> Thanks very much for responding Rene!
>
> --Marshall

You're very welcome!
René

Melanie L Chang

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Pennie (mutleycrew@thedoghouse.com) wrote:

: LOL...exactly what I've been feeding my crew for about 2 years now.

Like I said, I think dogs can adapt to almost anything. I have extremely
active dogs. If they got as little protein as is contained in chicken
backs, they would both be starving. Without adding other meat to the
diet, it is impossible to even approach minimum protein requirements
without feeding way too much bone.

: Besides the "veggie slop" they also get either a little cottage cheese
: or plain organic yoghurt in their bowels. Twice a week they get
: canned salmon and/or sardines.

Well, then they aren't getting only chicken backs, are they?

: Please don't label all raw feeders, or what they feed as "bad".

I didn't. You're getting defensive for no reason.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows function.
Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
mlchang@sas.upenn.edu |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

GAUBSTER2

>: Please don't label all raw feeders, or what they feed as "bad".
>
>I didn't. You're getting defensive for no reason.
>

Pennie gets defensive quite easily (you weren't even directing your post AT
her). If you keep inflaming her, she'll killfile you!

Marshall Dermer

In article <QyhYa.772$M6.49997@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
}"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu} wrote in message
}news:bgk8j3$ftg$1@uwm.edu...
}} Here you go!! $100 for a consult and diet from a veterinary nutritionist!
}}
}} http://www.petdiets.com/
}
}Due to storms every day (FL has more lightening strikes than any other
}state) and having to turn off the computer and lawn mowing, this is a late
}reply...and I've made a compliation of your posts:.

Thanks! I appreciate your help.

}
}Get a consultation before you drive yourself nuts! I do not think I would
}relish figuring out metabolizable energy per kcal of food. The point of
}this was to check if everything was hunky dory. If you have doubts, then
}call in the professionals.

Will do.

}
}}The vet thinks Max's problem
} } has something to do with the gall bladder or liver. Another vet
} } questioned the high fat levels in Canine U/D. The attacks
} } began after my dog was on the Canine U/D for 4 months.
}
}......I've been wondering about Max's attacks. He never had these before
}going on Hills U/D?? Are they sure it isn't pancreatitis attacks?

The enzyme tests were run but AFTER the attacks.

If fat
}is causing an attack and it's the gall bladder that means it's sludgy.
}Eating less fat will keep it sludgy. I've run through spells of gall
}bladder troubles and I can tell you what has helped clean out my gall
}bladder the most - apple juice. I've even managed to move some gall stones
}with just apple juice.

Do you have objective evidence like a sonogram to verify that
there was sludge before taking the apple juice and less later?

OTOH if it's pancreatitis and the low fat level is
}helping him, best to stick with it. At this point there's no way to know.
}It really sounds more like pancreatitis to me as the fat level in U/D is
}higher to make up for calories lost due to low protein. I'd compare fat
}levels in U/d to what you used to feed before U/d. If he's never had these
}attacks before and the fat was a lot less in your original feed, I'd stick
}with lower fat.

Yes, that is my feeling. Purina's Beneful, Max's previous diet,
is 10% fat. Hill's Canine U/D is 17% fat.

The vet diets for CaOx may not be appropriate then, as they
}all seem to depend on a higher fat level.

There is one by Innovative Veterinary Diets with only 10% fat.

Making your own food, as you
}said, gives you the opportunity to tailor a food to your dog, which is the
}point of home food preparation. You're almost there, stick with it, just
}get some help.
}
}}This morning, I decided to compare Strombeck's diet for
} } calcium oxalate stones with the NRC tables. I used the
} }values from the USDA nutritonal data base. I could only
} } compare the values for vitamins and minerals because I
} } can't figure out the required minimum concentrations for
} } amino acids.
}.........I'd put this in the hands of a professional, but the NRC Minimum
}Nutrient Requirements of Dogs are on page 44 in Table 1 (not 2!). They are
}expressed as mg/kg of body weight of dog. The USDA Nutrient Database Tables
}are expressed in grams. 1 gram = 1000 miligrams (mg) so to change the USDA
}grams to the mg in the NRC, divide by 1000 (or move the decimal point over
}3 places to the left). People who analyze diets have computer programs to
}do this for them - much less tedious. ME (from table 2) is metabolizable
}energy, which is another whole ball of wax.

Yes.

}
}Ran across this page - acid ash means that the higher the number the more
}acidic the effect on the body - thus the urine will get acidic to keep the
}body pH in balance. The lower the number the more alkaline the urine will
}be: http://www.marinurology.com/article.../foods/acid.htm

Great site!

}And this tidbit from a human site:
}A B-6 deficiency increases urinary oxalate, which leads to kidney stones;
}but even in those who are not deficient, B-6 reduces urinary oxalate levels.

Tne NRC table recommend 22 microgm/kg. Max weighs about 8 kg so he should
receive about 176 micorgrams per day. His diet includes about 1.5 cups of
brown rice per day which alone contains .42 mg of B6 which is 420 micrograms.

}Prescription for Nutritional Healing (people) mentions zinc as an important
}inhibitor of crystallization, which can lead to stone formation.
}
}The above source also lists the foods which contain or lead to the
}production of oxalic acid: asparagus, beet greens, beets, blueberries,
}celery, eggs, fish, grapes, parsley, rhubarb, sorrel, spinach, Swiss chard
}and the vegetables of the cabbage family.
}
}A long story here about a dog with CaOx stones
}http://www.macatawa.org/~wilcox_k/diet.html By the way, there's a comment
}board at this site, and lots of people seem to complain that the Hills U/d
}was rejected by their dogs.

I had read macatawa. Thanks.

}Contents of Canned Hills U/d: They do add both taurine and L-carnitine and
}Vit E. If
}you want to look at the complete blurb start here:
}http://www.hillspet.com/owner/owner...iption_diet.jsp
}Water, chicken, egg products, corn starch, sucrose, rice, pork liver,
}chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and, citric acid), chicken
}liver flavor, fish oil, soy fiber, powdered cellulose, casein, taurine,
}L-carnitine, minerals (potassium citrate, salt, calcium carbonate, ferrous
}sulfate, zinc oxide, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium
}selenite), beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin D3 supplement,
}vitamin E supplement, thiamine mononitrate, niacin, calcium pantothenate,
}pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12
}supplement).
}
}A page on IVD diets - they do have one for CaOx stones - it's in the Select
}Care Line and is called Modified - links to all other companies that make
}vet diets are at bottom of page: http://www.prescriptiondiets.com/ino.html

Yes and only 10% fat!

}This was from a Marvista Vet page on Allergies:
}for those who need to know where they might purchase IVD diets, IVD has a
}central telephone number: 1-800-466-0912. IVD can tell you what distributor
}is local to your area so that your veterinarian can then order IVD diets for
}you. IVD Diets are also available through www.VetCentric.com We (or your
}regular vet) must approve a prescription with VetCentric.com for you to be
}able to order this food for home delivery.
}
}And this from the IVD site: For more in-depth technical information
}regarding any IVD diet, please contact our Professional Services department
}at 1-800-466-0912.
}.........Don't be shy! If your vet does not carry these products tell these
}people you are considering using their diet for CaOx stones and would like
}to know what is in it, and what the analysis is as your dog has problems
}with fat. See if they'll email you the info. If you live in a big enough
}place, there might be other vets in town that carry it and they can order it
}for you.

Thanks, I had already called them but right now I am considering a home
made diet. I like Stromberg's diet and would have a nutritionist modify
it.

}Below are from PubMed, just enter PMID number in search box to get abstract:
}http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
}
}Res Vet Sci. 2003 Aug;75(1):33-41.
}The relative effects of supplemental dietary calcium and oxalate on urine
}composition and calcium oxalate relative supersaturation in healthy adult
}dogs.
}Stevenson AE, Hynds WK, Markwell PJ.
}The WALTHAM Centre for Pet Nutrition, Waltham on the Wolds, Melton Mowbray,
}Leicestershire LE14 4RT, UK.
}PMID: 12801461
}
}Stevenson AE, Hynds WK, Markwell PJ.
} Effect of dietary moisture and sodium content on urine composition and
}calcium oxalate relative supersaturation in healthy miniature schnauzers and
}labrador retrievers.
}Res Vet Sci. 2003 Apr;74(2):145-51.
}PMID: 12589739
}
}The conclusions of the 2 articles below are very interesting and seem to run
}directly opposite of the low protein crowd. Might be worthwhile to track
}down the second one WRT canned food::
}
}Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich
}LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.
} Associations between dry dietary factors and canine calcium oxalate
}uroliths.
}Am J Vet Res. 2002 Mar;63(3):330-7.
}PMID: 11911566
}
}Lekcharoensuk C, Osborne CA, Lulich JP, Pusoonthornthum R, Kirk CA, Ulrich
}LK, Koehler LA, Carpenter KA, Swanson LL.
} Associations between dietary factors in canned food and formation of
}calcium oxalate uroliths in dogs.
}Am J Vet Res. 2002 Feb;63(2):163-9.
}PMID: 11843112
}
}Protecting the kidney with anti-oxidants
}Thamilselvan S, Byer KJ, Hackett RL, Khan SR.
} Free radical scavengers, catalase and superoxide dismutase provide
}protection from oxalate-associated injury to LLC-PK1 and MDCK cells.
}J Urol. 2000 Jul;164(1):224-9.
}PMID: 10840464
}
}Kim HH, Kwak C, Jeong BC, Kim SW.
} Effect of oxalate on the growth of renal tubular epithelial cells.
}J Endourol. 2002 May;16(4):261-4.
}PMID: 12042112
}---------------------------------------------
}
}..........I've sort of gotten dizzy following this thread, but to summarize:
}
}Personally I'd send an email to Strombeck or the U of Cal Davis place that
}formulated this diet and ask for any updates - with particular reference to
}taurine, L-carnitine, Vit E and essential fatty acids when using olive oil
}(if
}that's what you're going to stick with). And ask if thinking has changed
}any WRT CaOx stones and diet. (He published this diet in a book, he should
}be happy to provide updates. This is not the same as publishing a chocolate
}chip cookie recipe in a cookbook for people!) See if he can send you an
}analysis of the diet if he has one.
}
}I'd get a consult with a nutritionist and ask the same questions and also
}ask if it would be beneficial to add a B50 complex to the diet. Since you
}already have to add B12 and there is a chance B6 might help, it makes sense
}to me. B vitamins are water soluble, which means the body doesn't store
}them anywhere. They are essential to almost all metabolic processes in the
}body, so I always view it as cheap insurance. Bs sort of need to be in
}balance with each other, so perhaps it might be best to add a whole B
}complex rather than supplement separate ones. Plus some are used faster in
}stress situations. Also mention the gall bladder/pancreatitis??? situation
}and ask for low fat diet. I'd also ask about zinc sufficiency in the diet
}and what level can be fed without harm if supplementation is appropriate.
}(Keep in mind that the values listed in the NRC are minimums, not maximums.)

}......When adding any supplements to a diet, always start out at 1/4 or 1/2
}dose, then wait a couple of days, then increase a little, wait a couple of
}days, then give full dose. If everthing is OK, add next thing and do it in
}the same manner. This is because different dogs can react differently to
}various things. Someone mentioned allergies to flax oil - sure it can
}happen - same with fish. How it affects your dog is the most important
}thing and there's no way to predict.
}
}Dosages: Vit E
}Earl Mindell's suggestions: small dog 100 IU daily
}Cheryl Schwartz, DVM - ~ 50 IU daily small dog/cat
}
}These are probably from Dr. Clemmons (U. of FL) (at least they were before
}they rearranged the website), but there really isn't much in the way of
}dosage
}suggestions:
}http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/Alt_med...graph/mono.html
}
}Flax oil: Can't give you an exact measurement - I'd give no more than 1/4
}tsp to start, maybe work up to 1/2 tsp.
}
}......To get Max to drink more, try offering him homemade broth. Boil some
}chicken breast (no skin, bones OK) to death. Strain, toss solids, cool,
}defat (put in fridge until fat solid and scoop off) and you can even water
}it down a lot. Offer several times a day. Most animals really like it.
}Also, don't know if you've already done this, but best to offer distilled
}water.
}
}..........That's all I can think of. If Max is doing well on this diet,
}digesting it OK, no problems that you can see, all you have to do is to
}tweak it WRT some of the things that might be out of balance. Totally
}unbalanced diets are fed as allergy elimination diets for 3 months I think,
}so you're not killing your dog by feeding this diet temporarily. Ideally
}your vet should be able to tell you how much Vit E, etc. to use, but I've
}never run across many vets that can really discuss diet/nutritional needs of
}dogs.
}
}buglady
}take out the dog before replying

Thanks very much for all the work and advice Buglady! (How did you come up with
this name?)

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

Correction. I just called IVD and their Canine Modified Formula
is 15% fat by dry weight which isn't that much lower than is
Hill's U/D at about 17%.

--Marshall

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgtr6d$nuk$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <QyhYa.772$M6.49997@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady"
<buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
I've run through spells of gall
> }bladder troubles and I can tell you what has helped clean out my gall
> }bladder the most - apple juice. I've even managed to move some gall
stones
> }with just apple juice.
>
> Do you have objective evidence like a sonogram to verify that
> there was sludge before taking the apple juice and less later?

............No, just subjective evidence, like feeling a stone rolling down
the duct at night and seeing the evidence in the bowl the next day!

> Thanks very much for all the work and advice Buglady! (How did you come up
with
> this name?)

.......I like bugs......

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

In article <Z3xYa.272$H4.12349@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>
>"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>news:bgtr6d$nuk$1@uwm.edu...
>> In article <QyhYa.772$M6.49997@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady"
><buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>I've run through spells of gall
>> }bladder troubles and I can tell you what has helped clean out my gall
>> }bladder the most - apple juice. I've even managed to move some gall
>stones
>> }with just apple juice.
>>
>> Do you have objective evidence like a sonogram to verify that
>> there was sludge before taking the apple juice and less later?
>
>...........No, just subjective evidence, like feeling a stone rolling down
>the duct at night and seeing the evidence in the bowl the next day!

I hate to ask this but looks can be deceptive. Did you palpate the
"stone"?

Some time ago, on a Usenet group, I found a post by a physician
(pathologist) who claimed that juice/oil flushes were rubbish!

--Marshall

buglady

Amy Dahl

buglady wrote:
>
> OK, but how long ago was Strombeck's book written?

1999.

> Don't be blinded by the
> fact that Strombeck is a vet.

I, too, am a skeptic of the general vet's knowledge on subjects
where the information may be based primarily on a textbook used
in school. The path to inclusion of scientific findings in a
textbook can be a tortuous one. But Strombeck is a primary
source, having been involved in research in vet. gastroenterology
and diet (as a professor at UC Davis vet school) and in private
practice specializing in gastroenterology.

If you are interested in the subject of feeding pets, I
recommend his book.

Amy Dahl

Marshall Dermer

In article <KhMWa.30908$Mc.2421228@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net} "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com} writes:
}"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu} wrote in message
}news:bgedes$8j$1@uwm.edu...
}} In article <PRwWa.30179$Mc.2355788@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net}
}"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com} writes:
}
}} What is NAP and where is the site?
}........See my original post.

Yes, I finally figured it out from the URL.

}
}} }.......Iron might be a problem unless you're feeding some foods high in
}} }iron, or adding some greens like parsley. Perhaps the multivitamin will
}} }cover it, but I doubt this vitamin has amino acids in it.
}}
}} I would think that that the foods I descibed above are high in iron.
}
}...........But do you know for sure? Check the USDA Nutrient Database to
}make sure.
}http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodco.../SR15/sr15.html

Thanks for the resource.

Max supposedly needs .65*8 mg of iron per day or 5.2 mg. Per
day he eats about 1/2 cup of cow peas that yields .9 mg of iron
and 1.6 cups of brown rice that yields 1.6 mg, and about 1/10 of
a human vitamin that yields 1.8 mg. So by these calculations he
is getting about 4.3 mg of iron per day. Perhaps, I should increase
the vitamin dose. I will have to check this out for other vitamins.

}} }I'd be really concerned about lack of the amino acids taurine,
}L-carnitine,
}} }arginine, methionine that are present in meat and not in vegetables.
}This
}} }is why meat is a perfect component of food for dogs - it has a good amino
}} }acid profile appropriate to the species.
}}
}} My dog has had calcium oxalate uroliths and is supposed to be on a low
}} protein, low oxalate, alkaline diet.
}
}.....Yes, but low protein doesn't necessarily mean vegetarian. If you are
}doing a vegan diet (no eggs either???), you must be careful. And you'd
}definiately need to supplement some amino acids. If you've been feeding
}low protein and/or vegan diet for a while, it might be the source of the
}bile sludge problems.

His previous diet was Hills Cainine U/D. His current diet is from
a book by Donald Strombeck, a veterinary gastroenterologist, and is
for dogs with a history of calcium oxalte stones.

}......Perhaps you could email this woman, who managed to dissolve calcium
}oxalate stones in her dogs: http://www.lesliebean.net/petnutrition.html I
}don't have the faintest idea of what the diet is.

I didn't find the site compelling.

}........This is not necessarily new news, but a good population of certain
}GI bacterial flora can help with calcium oxalate problems. Has your dog
}been on antibiotics?

No.

Does he get to play in the dirt?

A Havanese in the dirt?

--Marshall

This may not so much
}be a problem with dogs, but cats whose feet never touch the ground and have
}rounds of antibiotics may not get re-exposed to these organisms:
}http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/
}http://www.geocities.com/oxalate2000/News.html
}http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/li...2.2003.00634.x/
}abs/
}http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...=PubMed&list_ui
}ds=12678863&dopt=Abstract
}http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...=PubMed&list_ui
}ds=10541258&dopt=Abstract
}http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/ar...gi?artid=124017
}
}Speedyvet on functional foods:
}http://www.speedyvet.com/Learningce...3functional.htm
}
}buglady
}take out the dog before replying
}
}
}

buglady

Amy Dahl

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bgu7n9$ifc$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <Z3xYa.272$H4.12349@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady"
> Some time ago, on a Usenet group, I found a post by a physician
> (pathologist) who claimed that juice/oil flushes were rubbish!

........Of course he did, he'd rather operate!

............Well, I'll tell ya, there's no mistaking a gall bladder stone
moving through a duct.

http://www.viable-herbal.com/singles/herbs/s904.htm
And it is interesting that this med info site says drink lots of water or
apple juice:
http://www.medformation.com/mf/mm_q.../qd/nd0509g.htm
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/5710/81105

Various sites say apples have sorbitol (a natural laxative), malic acid
(already made by body, slight irritant to liver) and pectin (liver cleanser,
lowers cholesterol), each of which they claim helps soften up gallstones.
There is quite a bit of literature on pectin, but I'm done with searches at
the moment.

Go buy a quart of apple juice (natural stuff is better) and drink half of it
in one day...... the rest the next day....you'll see!

buglady
take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

In article <MQWYa.3419$M6.224844@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>news:bgu7n9$ifc$1@uwm.edu...
>> In article <Z3xYa.272$H4.12349@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady"
>> Some time ago, on a Usenet group, I found a post by a physician
>> (pathologist) who claimed that juice/oil flushes were rubbish!
>
>.......Of course he did, he'd rather operate!

As I recall, he was a pathologist.

>
>...........Well, I'll tell ya, there's no mistaking a gall bladder stone
>moving through a duct.

But you didn't see the stone moving through a duct.

>http://www.viable-herbal.com/singles/herbs/s904.htm

The site above says that apple pectin binds with fat so
it is not absorbed in the intestine. It does not say
that apple juice some how enhances the removal of
gallstones.

>And it is interesting that this med info site says drink lots of water or
>apple juice:
>http://www.medformation.com/mf/mm_q.../qd/nd0509g.htm

The site above does not say that apple juice eliminates gall stones.

>http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/5710/81105

Hardly an authoritative site.

>
>Various sites say apples have sorbitol (a natural laxative), malic acid
>(already made by body, slight irritant to liver) and pectin (liver cleanser,
>lowers cholesterol), each of which they claim helps soften up gallstones.
>There is quite a bit of literature on pectin, but I'm done with searches at
>the moment.
>
>Go buy a quart of apple juice (natural stuff is better) and drink half of it
>in one day...... the rest the next day....you'll see!

See a stone in my gall bladder duct? I hope not for that would
suggest that my body cavity were open. :-(

Thanks for all the help with Max but I am not sure about your
apple juice solution to gall stones.

Best wishes,

--Marshall

Marshall Dermer

In article <Z8UWa.129808$Io.11017205@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> "buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com> writes:
>
>"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
>news:bggq51$miv$1@uwm.edu...
>> In article <KhMWa.30908$Mc.2421228@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net}
>"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com} writes:> His previous diet was Hills
>Cainine U/D. His current diet is from
>> a book by Donald Strombeck, a veterinary gastroenterologist, and is
>> for dogs with a history of calcium oxalte stones.
>
>OK, but how long ago was Strombeck's book written?

Four years ago.

Pitcairn's vegetarian
>diets for dogs are ovo-lacto veg diets. He does not think it is healthy to
>totally cut out all dairy/egg/meat protein for dogs. He does add taurine to
>cats diets, but not dogs. Considering this book was written in 1995, I'd
>bet if asked today he'd be adding taurine at least. Don't be blinded by the
>fact that Strombeck is a vet. Older books do not have current information
>in them.

I will use the charts to see what is missing in Max's diet as well
as your suggestions. The basic problem is knowing what constituents
are high in oxalates.

Thanks for all your help.

--Marshall

>Good luck with Max
>buglady
>take out the dog before replying
>
>

Marshall Dermer

buglady

"Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:bggq51$miv$1@uwm.edu...
> In article <KhMWa.30908$Mc.2421228@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net}
"buglady" <buglady99@bigfootdog.com} writes:> His previous diet was Hills
Cainine U/D. His current diet is from
> a book by Donald Strombeck, a veterinary gastroenterologist, and is
> for dogs with a history of calcium oxalte stones.

OK, but how long ago was Strombeck's book written? Pitcairn's vegetarian
diets for dogs are ovo-lacto veg diets. He does not think it is healthy to
totally cut out all dairy/egg/meat protein for dogs. He does add taurine to
cats diets, but not dogs. Considering this book was written in 1995, I'd
bet if asked today he'd be adding taurine at least. Don't be blinded by the
fact that Strombeck is a vet. Older books do not have current information
in them.

Good luck with Max
buglady
take out the dog before replying

Marshall Dermer

In article <3F2C157D.E03145C1@oakhillkennel.com> Amy Dahl <amy@oakhillkennel.com> writes:

All true! --Marshall

>
>
>Marshall Dermer wrote:
>>
>> Max supposedly needs .65*8 mg of iron per day or 5.2 mg. Per
>> day he eats about 1/2 cup of cow peas that yields .9 mg of iron
>> and 1.6 cups of brown rice that yields 1.6 mg, and about 1/10 of
>> a human vitamin that yields 1.8 mg. So by these calculations he
>> is getting about 4.3 mg of iron per day. Perhaps, I should increase
>> the vitamin dose. I will have to check this out for other vitamins.
>>
>Don't forget that the quantity of a nutrient in the food is not
>necessarily the same as its bioavailability (a point Strombeck
>repeats). As a woman concerned with iron intake, I know some
>forms (chelated) are thought to be absorbed more efficiently,
>others less. Also I remember hearing that in humans, iron is
>absorbed only in one portion of the digestive tract, so after
>the mass of food has moved beyond that point, no more is
>extracted.
>
>The only parts of this I would extrapolate directly to dogs are
>that probably more is eaten than is utilized, and probably iron
>in a supplement, iron in vegetable sources, and iron in meat
>are not all used equally well.
>
>Amy Dahl

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