| | Archive > Pet newsgroups > rec.pets.dogs.health Max, Diet, Oxalate Uroliths, "Gall Bladder Attacks" - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page Marshall Dermer Althought this is about health, I am posting to two dog groups because this is where I had discussed these topics before. Max is about 6 years old and because he had calcium oxalate uroliths he was placed on Hills Canine U/D kibble which we hydrated before serving. After about four months on the diet, Max started developing symptoms much like gall-bladder attacks. This would involve vomiting in the morning and his progressively either "shutting down," or moving from place to place as if he could not find a comfortable position. Other behavior included an elevated body temperature, panting, and shivering. These behaviors suggest that Max was in pain. The symptoms would resolve on their own within 12 hrs and he would have these attacks about once every four weeks. His latest attack, however, was one week after a previous attack. Max's vet ran numerous tests including a sonogram, put Max on Pepcid AC for a month, but the attacks continued. Eventually, the vet reluctantly suggested exploratory surgery though he thought bringing Max to the University of Wisconsin Veterinary School to be checked by internists was a good idea. We decided to first try one medication and alter Max's diet. The medication is Actigal which is supposed to clean out Max's gall bladder as well as liver and ducts. He has been on this medication for one week. We also discontinued the Hills U/D because it is a high fat diet: at least 17.5% fat. Amy Dahl brought Strombeck's _Home-Prepared Dog & Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative_ to our attention. http://shop.store.yahoo.com/isupress/0813821495.html The book presents two diets for dogs who have had calcium uroliths. It took me a while: to find bone meal without much lead (see KAL Bone Meal Powder), to learn to put the food in a processor and whip it up well for otherwise Max's bowel movements are loose, and to serve the food in little balls for otherwise Max's Havanese beard becomes all gummed up. The effort at the home diet appears worthwhile. Max clearly prefers the black-eyed pea/brown rice diet to Hill's U/D. Moreover, the PH of his urine is 7 which is about the same PH on the U/D but is far more basic than when he developed stones. The home-made diet is also low on added sodium chloride and surely lower in fat than U/D. Also, the diet is low in oxalate. Finally, perhaps because the food contains so much water, his urine looks more dilute than on the U/D. I have copied the recipes from Strombeck's book and modified them for the KAL Bone Meal Powder, but if you are thinking about putting your dog on one of these diets then you really should read much, though not all, of the book because the information you will need is scattered throughout the book. For example, Max is also given about 1/10 of a human multi-vitamin per day and once a month some vitamin B-12. We'll just have to see how things work out. Will the attacks disappear or will have to take Max to the university hospital? --Marshall Marshall Dermer In article <vhc6jssqj3ts81@corp.supernews.com> "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> writes: >Congratulations Marshall, on giving a home prepared diet a try! I hope >everything works out for your Max. Keep us posted! > >René Thanks for the good wishes Rene. Amy Dahl made this point to me. Hills Canine U/D is made for various urninary tract problems and may not be ideal for every problem. Also, just for the record, the veterinarian does not believe that the food has anything to do with Max's problem. There certainly was a long delay, about 4 months, between introducing the U/D and Max having his first attack. Again, thanks for the good wishes Rene. --Marshall The Puppy Wizard HOWEDY professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM 'NO!' into ITS face for 5 second and lock IT in a box for ten minutes reflection" dermer, "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:bf56g2$m4f$1@uwm.edu... > In article <vhc6jssqj3ts81@corp.supernews.com> "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> > writes: > > >Congratulations Marshall, on giving a home prepared diet a try! I hope > >everything works out for your Max. Keep us posted! > > > >René > > Thanks for the good wishes Rene. INDEEDY! LikeWIZE. > Amy Dahl made this point to me. INDEEED? You mean lying frosty dahl, professor SCRUFF SHAKE? > Hills Canine U/D is made for various urninary tract problems > and may not be ideal for every problem. Well, perhaps you can ask her to speak to your VET for you, an get Maxie The Magnificent Obsessively Compulsive Masturbator all HEELED. > Also, just for the record, the veterinarian does not believe > that the food has anything to do with Max's problem. Right. Maxie is havin a PREDICTABLE stress caused health problem after five years of bicycle chasing to expiate his anxiety... same same as what caused Rocky's seizures. > There certainly was a long delay, about 4 months, between > introducing the U/D and Max having his first attack. Yeah... Stress takes a while sometimes... > Again, thanks for the good wishes Rene. LikeWIZE, I'm SHORE. > --Marshall beyond click and treat, click and love Date: 2003-07-12 20:12:10 PST HOWEDY Hal, "Hal" <universatile@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:7a337042.0307111839.2e4c6973@posting.google.com... : > I have recently been reading about training methods, Got some bad news for ya, Hal. You've been wastin your time with malarkey that don't fit The Puppy Wizard's scientific model on training and behavior of animals and children. > coercive, That's the dealbreaker right there, Hal. That's HOWE COME we're on the brink of WWW111. It's nuthin to be disconcerted abHOWET, it's been HOWER human nature since Day WON. The same discussions we're havin over HOWE to hurt a dog pupperly are the same discusions we've had in every war and hate crime ever since the snake lied to Eve...and we been balmin the snake and hidin HOWER nekkidness and when found, ask "who, ME Lordy?" The gig is up. The Puppy Wizard has driven HOWER Gang of lying dog abusing punk thug cowards into mass hysteria in an effort to distract us from the issue of non force trainin bein 100% EFFECTIVE vs hurtin and killin HOWER best 10%. Only the best and smartest dogs turn on their abusers. HOWER dogs lovers try to "breed dHOWEn" their dog's nintelligence so they can control them. You'll see in The Puppy Wizard's archives HOWER illustriHOWES dogman tellin us he's AFRAID of SMART DOGS. Give ya a example, Hal. This is gonna TAKE YOU HOWET. HOWER sar, military, and police dogs are being mishandled. That's HOWE COME they missed the bone in the park in the Chandra Levy case in DC and the Smart girl WITHIN EAR SHOT OF HER and the Ocala Ax Man hot on the trail minutes after the crime. He's laughin his arse off right nHOWE. Here's HOWE COME dogs like Herra went HOWETA control and killed Diane Whipple and these search dogs seeminly couldn't find their arses if their tails was on fire. The dogs learn EVERY THING. They likeWIZE understand HOWE to train their handlers. The dogs know they don't get jerked and choked while trackin cause the handler dont' know where the find is. HOWER geniuses are afraid they'll break their dogs of searchin. Trackin jobs are a walk in the park for them, they know they can't get hurt. THAT'S HOWE COME lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's hand picked selectively bred meticulHOWElesly trained will achieve HIGH SCORES in the ring, but will not work a sar JOB. That's on accHOWENT of she trains in a ring environment six days a week, whether he needs it or not. She thinks the dog is gonna FORGET HOWE to do a command if she doesn't work IT nearly daily. CORRECTIONS NEVER END. UNTIL THEY GO TO TRACKIN~ The dogs will enjoy a romp in the park and when they get hungry will go a road and sit to tell the handler the subject "got in a car and got away."The dogs KNOW that's the ONLY excuse the hadndler's will accept so they can go back to their HOWES and cHOWE dHOWEN. > non...etc. HOWE can a intelligent human bein justify hurting and intimidating or ignoring the emotional needs of a dumb animal or child? Effective non physical scientific and psychological handling techniques modifiy behaviors in a consistent manner or they wouldn't be scientific. The C/T mehtod IS scientific, but it's failure ratio is GUARANTEED MINIMUM of 10% soon as the critter has access to any free food, according to the US Military Marine Mammals corps. > I definitely dont like the idea of coercive training. That's the ONLY reason HOWER DOG LOVERS have behavior problems in their dogs and need to crate them to control the behaviors they don't have the intellect to HOWEtwit. > I believe the reason a dog should do things for the human is out of loyalty, Well, THAT'S a little altruistic and anthropomorphilogical. To be MOORE accurate, we'll call it PACK INSTINCT. > not fear. This applies to click and treat too... Well, fancy that??? The c/t methods is highly recommended here abHOWETS. shirly chong's website teaches us CRAPHOWES clicker trainin that is so precisly taught, she allows the dogs to reward themselves on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar and if that doesn't TURN THEM ON, she'll break HOWET the shock collar and aversive sprays. Crating is a necessity cause their dogs never learn self control. The clicker method teaches greed and birbes usurp the handler's authority and disctact the dog from the concept of the commands he's learning. As an added bonus for exclellent performance, the treat is withheld till the dog starts "throwin behaviors." The state of mind that accesses the dog's "throwin of behaviors" to elicit a treat, is THE SAME SAME SAME SAME STATE OF MIND WHERE OBSESSIVE / COMPUSLIVE / SEIZURE BEHAVIORS LIVE. Subsequently, when the dog is asked to do a command like sit at the door to greet a guest, the dog AUTOMAGICKALLY reflexe to the state of mind in which the command was taught, and may likely break the command or even become aggressive, as the thouhts of FOOD often provoke flight/fight/aggression. Dogs often fear people offering them bribes cause that's not natural. Dogs are scavengers who steal scraps and run to hide to eat it with their back to the wall in a heightened state of alert. Dogs like that get DEAD at HOWER shelters... Teaching a little TRUST would make the dog accept the treat withHOWET suspicion. But nothin will take the anxiety HOWETA the command so long as we reinforce it occasionally.... REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS. At least for those of us who's dogs prefer FORCE to bein asked NICE to do sumpthin and being told good boy before the command is finished leavin HOWER lips. The dog got no goddamned choice but to want to do as we ask. WE NEVER GOT TO TELL THEM "NO!' WE NEVER GOT TO GIVE THEM A EVIL EYE OR STARE OR LOCK THEM IN BOXES TO CONTROL THEIR HOWET OF CONTROL BEHAIORS CAUSE WE DON'T PROVOKE ANIMOSITY OR MISTRUST. > the dog shouldnt (in my ideal fantasy Pssst? HOWE COME you think The Puppy Wizard got the title? > which may never come to pass) JUST DID, if you're SMART ENOUGH to do what all the other successful handlers and trainers The Puppy Wizard has taught all over the Whole Wild World from settin right here, stark ravin nekkid.. > obey the owner or stay out of trouble TROUBLE IS THE DEAL BREAKER. You cannot intimidate your dog a few inches HOWETA your arm's reach... unless you got a shock collar on IT. > because they will get to eat, The Puppy Wizard only feeds HIS dogs if Mrs. Puppy Wizard is HOWETA toHOWEN or deathly ill. > but because they love the owner so much All it takes is BRIEF, CONSTANT, INTERMITTENT, PROLONGED, NON PHYSICAL PRAISE. > that they are eager to please, They'll do anything we ask cause they ENJOY WORKIN with their pack. But the alphalpha theory bunk is not what we're talkin here. That's for the goddamned fruitcakes like alpha sweeny. He's quite the expert on dog trainin. > ideally now, at ALL costs, (including dieing for the owner). See "Llama Spit" if you wanna see moore intricate dog abuser thinkin on stuff like that and breakin a command. Might wanna look up "learned disobedience." That's a SKILL guide dogs are taught over hundreds of HOWERS of work to insure the dogs won't follow a blind man's command into a dangerHOWES situation. HOWER DOG LOVERS WOULD CHOKE AND SHOCK their own dogs for doin. It's sumpthin a non force trained dog will ASK PERMISSION TO DO cause he does not FEAR failure to perform a command. We also have a Ace in the hole. WE train commands as a condtioned reflex. Takes abHOWET a HOWER to train a reliable come command. > My question, Is there any way of training anyone has info about or > knows about that is akin to what I describe? All that AND THEN SOME. But HOWER DOG LOVERS would rather see your dog DIE than tell you HOWE the scores of FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students with 100% NEAR INSTANT SUCCESS STORIES done it EZ FAST and FOR FREE. HOWER DOG LOVERS CALL THEM LIARS FORGERIES AND PAID SHILLS FOR The Puppy Wizard. > If it helps to know what type of breed I meen the smarter varieties, A DOG IS A DOG, Hal. > maybe wolf hybrids Them too, only they work EVEN BETTER. > and aussie cattle dogs. SAME SAME! The "high drive" dogs are the EZIEST to train cause THEY'RE MOTIVATED. All we got to do is change their PRYORITIES. > Thanks for any help about this conflict. You've thus far seen NO "expert" here tell you it's possible or even desirable to do what The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students REPORT RIGHT HERE. That's HOWE COME the killfile Jerry campaigns. HOWER DOG LOVERS will do and say ANYTHING to defend what they ENJOY doin to their dogs. UNLESS THEY BELIEVE ALL THEM GOOD PEOPLE ARE LIARS... what do you think, Hal? You think all them post sayin "THANKS JERRY! Your Method / Machine SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE" are FORGERIES? HOWEDY matty, "Rocky" <2pups@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message news:Xns93AFC897B338Faustralianshepherdca@IP... > Hilbert said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior: > > [Hilbert replies to Jar Jar] You mean, The Puppy Wizard, matty? Here's some of the latest research you'll be pleased to learn abHOWET: R&D Systems: IL-6 Everything Cytokine & Beyond ELISAs, proteins, antibodies & more www.RnDSystems.com Kinda substantiates The Puppy Wizard's BOGUS claims abHOWET HOWE COME your dog got SEIZURES and your pal professor lyin doc SCRUFF SHAKE dermer's little dog Maxie The Magnificent Obsessively Compulsive Masturbator's got chronic irritiable bowel syndrome... > > As for crossposting: my news client doesn't allow for that... The Puppy Wizard will be pleased to repost responses from such unfortunate readers, so other dog lovers will have benefit of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Student's reports. Don't you think that's very kindly of The Puppy Wizard, matty? > As for your news client, since you're savvy to use slrn on linux, That's all Greek, to The Puppy Wizard. The Puppy Wizard specializes in living beings, not computer programs. IN FACT, training engineers and psychologists has ALWAYS been the most difficult job, for The Puppy Wizard, as they are linear thinkers and have great difficulty relating to dog behavior and understanding the HOWE'S and HOWE COME'S of behaviorISM as taught by The Puppy Wizard. > I'd think that you'd have learned how to use slrn to snip > what you're replying to. What does matty FEAR so, that he's got to WORRY abHOWET HOWER DOG LOVERS learning the BEST INFORMATION, in this land of the FREE? Oh, The Puppy Wizard almost FORGOT, matty is canadian, probably the get of WON of HOWER draft evaders and a cannuk business lady and WON too many of Govenor General's. Well, so be it matty. The Puppy Wizard does not discriminate based on BREED. > -- > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. Oh, hey??? Here's what matty is WORRIED abHOWET folks, seein him HURTIN DOGS and LYING abHOWET it. Be SHORE to read down to matty's INTELLECTUAL discussion with Professora Daniel, in defense of HURTIN DOGS: > > > Jerome Bigge writes: > > > I do know that hitting, hurting > > > your dog will often make the > > > dog either aggressive or a fear > > > biter, neither of which we want to do. > > And neither does anyone else, > > Jerome. No matter > > what Jerry Howe states. "Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. > > You're scary Marilyn. > > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed > > individual. I feel very sorry for her > > and her family. "His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce, Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience. > > BUT, giving you the benefit of the > > doubt, please provide a quote (an > > original quote, not from one of Jerry > > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that > > shows a regular poster promoting or > > using an abusive form of training. BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! > > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. "BethF" <dawg@alaska.com> wrote in message news:ugc7us32ki5fb9@corp.supernews.com... > > "Frank" <flmarcher@netscape.net> wrote in message > news:d2f1624e.0206101912.2980eb03@posting.google.com... > > dfrntdrums@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message news:<20020610173326.01953.00000597@mb-fx.aol.com>... > > > >"brianev" brianev@attbi.com wrote: > > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and > > > > AGREED with what you had to say. > > > > I find it sick to hear what people > > > > do with their dogs. : > > > Keep in mind that everything he says that > > > the regular posters of this ng do to their > > > dogs are lies. : > > > All of it. Every last bit. : > > All of it? : > > Ear pinching? : > > Shock collars? : > > Spiked chokers? : > > The regulars lie more in their denials than : > > Howe does in his accusing of them. : > Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything? : > Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself > would see denials when everyone has Jerry > killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts, > let alone respond to them. "Rocky" <2dogs@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAaustralianshepherdca@130.133.1.4... > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior: > > When you compare using sound and > > praise to solve a problem with using > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment > > how can you criticize the use of sound? > There's nothing more to be said, then. > You've made up your mind. > But you've impressed me by mentioning > that you're a professor with 30 years of > experience. > So, can you cite some examples of > people recommending "shock collars, > hanging, and punishment"? BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! > -- > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. You think matty's playin with a full goddamned deck? matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser. Isn't that true, Marilyn? Of course not, but THIS IS: "Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap," professora gingold. "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER? "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING is COURTEOUS? "I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently as possible. What does this mean?" Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude. "When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue your normal behavior." You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR? --Mike Dufort author of the zero selling book "Courteous Canines" You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck? Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple, suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey? Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it? "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach. Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch... And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder, expert trainer. You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT? "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl, discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors. Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS? "John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the rump with a training stick while holding him partially off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back to the line and cast him back to the dummies." The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE. We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL... terri willis, Psychoclown wrote: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw him down by his ears and climb all over it like a raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel of your palm. "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:a3h5qn$mra$1@uwm.edu... > >Di, > I don't believe you mentioned a particular > kind of training. If you are interested in > training retrieval behavior than do > consider our own Amy Dahl's: > The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a > Well-Mannered, Obedient and > Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a > Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl You failed to mention your pals the dahls are proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:" "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But Destructive," LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog. "I don't see why anyone would want to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl. DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH? > just $17.95 at Amazon.com. > (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the > few regulars here who are either ill- > tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.) > --Marshall Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS, professor SCRUFF SHAKE? amy lying frosty dahl continues: "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained require much more frequent and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done, This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply" BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE... "Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch" OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER. "You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl. "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold. From: Marshall Dermer (dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) In article <38CC0C43.94E2DDD1@earthlink.net> rhurwitz@earthlink.net writes: >> -snip headers etc. >> Yes. you're right, I really should find >> the book.. they don't have these books >> in the local pet stores I frequent, where >> do you find Koehler? > I got a nice large print copy from > Amazon.com >Richard Please try Powell's Books in Portland Oregon. Their URL is: http://www.powells.com/ Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both new and used books on its shelves. You can order books via e-email. Koehler Method Of Dog Training by Koehler, W R Published by HOWELL BOOK HOUSE (0876056575, ================================================== ====== Here's some quotes and some methods right outta your koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!" into its face for 5 seconds:" "The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York: Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)." Hanging "First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from the ground. As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems the dog is suspended in mid-air. However, to let the biting dog recover his footing while he still had the strength to renew the attack would be cruelty. The only justifiable course is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor inclination to renew the fight. When finally it is obvious that he is physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side. The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it alarm you THE REAL "HOOD" "If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the foregoing types of protest as "kid stuff" and would express his resentment of your efforts by biting, your problem is difficult -- and pressing. "Professional trainers often get these extreme problems. Nearly always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of a person who, by avoiding situations that the dog might resent, has nurtured the seeds of rebellion and then cultivated the resultant growth with under correction. When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of "the cruel trainer" whose advice they may have once rejected because it was incompatible with the sugary droolings of mealy- mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins and broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be proven guilty of the greatest act of cruelty to animals since the dawn of time. "With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than would ever be demonstrated by those who are "too kind" to make a correction and certainly with more disregard for his safety, the professional trainer morally feels obligated to perform a "major operation." "Since we are presently concerned with the dog that bites in resentment of the demands of training, we will set our example in that situation. (In a later chapter we will deal with the with the much easier problem of the dog that bites someone other than his master." Are we havin FUN yet? Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE? Marshall Dermer Thanks Pennie. Max had some gas when we started this black-eyed pea/brown rice diet but he no longer has gas. The real issue for us right now is whether his "attacks" will continue. If they abate we won't know if it is due to the Actigal or the diet. We'll, of course, discontiune the Acitgal at a cost of about $1.35/pill/day. :-) As for the diet, cooking the food takes some time but he really likes it. To put this another way, with the Canine U/D he would take a piece of kibble out of the bowel and move it several feet away. He would do this with many pieces until he would begin eating. I never thought much of this until I remembered that rats scatter their food when the smell of a newly introduced food has been correlated with delayed poisoning. Of course, I am not saying the canine u/d is poison. :-) --Marshall In article <pf4dhvsc2gok7mi2tuvnf9gc39or7rocn9@4ax.com> mutleycrew@thedoghouse.com writes: >Ditto Rene's comments Marshall =) I'm glad you've found something >that's working for Max. > >Pennie > >Let Food Be Our Medicine. >-Hippocrates The Puppy Wizard HOWEDY rene, The Puppy Wizard got that book too. professor SCRUFF SHAKE'S dog's physical health problems are caused by STRESS... same same same same cause of Maxie's OBSESSIVE / COMPULSIVE MASTURBATION as an anxiety relief mechanism... PROOF? The dog doesn't furiHOWEsly jerk off if he gets his daily five miles of exercise... The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) > "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:vhdq0ebiklhi1c@corp.supernews.com... > > "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message > news:bf56g2$m4f$1@uwm.edu... > > In article <vhc6jssqj3ts81@corp.supernews.com> "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> > > writes: > > > > >Congratulations Marshall, on giving a home prepared diet a try! I hope > > >everything works out for your Max. Keep us posted! > > > > > >René > > > > Thanks for the good wishes Rene. > > > > Amy Dahl made this point to me. Hills Canine U/D is made for > > various urninary tract problems and may not be ideal for > > every problem. > > > > Also, just for the record, the veterinarian does not believe > > that the food has anything to do with Max's problem. There > > certainly was a long delay, about 4 months, between introducing > > the U/D and Max having his first attack. > > > > Again, thanks for the good wishes Rene. > > > > --Marshall > > Since you are taking more "natural" steps to finding relief for Max, I > thought I would put a bug in your ear. I have a book "Four Paws, Five > Directions" by Cheryl Schwartz which is a guide to Chinese Medicine for dogs > and cats. In the liver/gall bladder section, there is a description that is > fairly close to what's going on with Max. If you have a vet near you that > practices Chinese Medicine, it may be worth a try? From reading your posts, > I suspect you don't believe in alternative treatments but are sometimes > willing to try something different. This book is the only reading I have > done on TCM and it is quite interesting. My holistic vet (who sold me the > book), uses TCM above all other modalities. > > Since, I think, this all started with urinary tract infections, here is some > info on UTI from the book above (some of it will not make sense, such as > meridians, yin/yang and heat/fire, unless you know about the Five Element > theory): "Western medicine sees bladder infections as being caused by > either bacteria or diets that create crystals in the urine which inflame the > bladder lining. The condition is almost always treated with antibiotics, > and if the inflammation is severe, cortisone is also used. The diet is > usually changed to a prescription type diet, creating thirst and promoting > urine formations. Many animals respond favorable to this course of > treatment, with only occasional bouts of urinary flare-ups, which are once > again treated with medications. > In Traditional Chinese Medicine, problems with the urinary bladder usually > fall under the categories of heat or damp heat. Whether pathogens are > present or not, it is the underlying constitution of the individual which > has made the animal vulnerable to bladder weakness. > Heat, or inflammatory conditions, usually arise from a dryness of lack of > moisture stemming from a kidney yin deficiency previously discussed. Kidney > yin deficiency leads to a lack of urine production, because not enough fluid > is being manufactured within the body. Since the kidney and bladder are > supposed to control the heart and small intestine in the Five Element > Control Cycle, when the kidney is weak, these fire organs create more heat > in the body. The scanty urine that is formed is highly concentrated and > hot, causing burning on the inside of the bladder wall or in the lining of > the urethra as it leaves the bladder. This can make the animal wince or cry > out either when passing the urine or just afterwards. Cats may run to try > to get away from the pain, or scratch furiously in the litter box in an > attempt to distract themselves. Due to their extreme discomfort, they may > be irritable and intolerant of their housemates. If the yin is sufficiently > low, some blood may be present in the urine. > Traditional Chinese Medicine treats these conditions by changing the diet to > cooling or yin nurturing foods as well as with herbs that clear fire, > restore the yin and restore the calming quality of the heart. > Damp heat situations are more severe than heat situations. In addition to > the kidney and heart meridians, when dampness enters the picture, the spleen > and the liver are also involved. A heat condition results from a fluid or > yin deficiency. Damp heat conditions usually arise from a kidney yang > deficiency that affects the spleen. As a result, the spleen cannot process > the moisture from food and the tissues become water-logged, causing a > feeling of heaviness and bloating. Moisture tends to sink to the lower part > of the body, creating stagnation in the bladder area. > When there is stagnation, the liver becomes involved and pockets of cold and > heat can develop because the movement of the fluid is blocked. Pain and the > frequent urge to urinate usually results. If the heat becomes severe, there > will be blood in the urine and it will be foul smelling or turbid. When the > urine is retained for long periods of time because of the stagnation or > because the animal doesn't want to experience the pain of passing it, > crystals can develop. Crystal, stone and sand formation are considered > stagnant damp heat situations by TCM. > Gravel and stones cause further inflammation, and if they block the urethra, > the urine becomes backed up. In situations of damp heat, there is usually > diarrhea, possibly with mucous or blood. The tongue is very moist, almost > swollen, with teeth imprints along its side edges." > > I hope you did not find the above too boring. To me, it is very > interesting. According to this, your dog needs cooling foods. (Proteins: > clam, duck, egg, pork. Grains: millet, barley, wheat. Vegetables: lettuce, > celery, broccoli, spinach, tomato, napa cabbage). Treatments usually > involve accupuncture as well. > > René > > > > Rene "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:bf76ke$k1d$1@uwm.edu... > > Dear René, > > Thanks so much for taking the time to type in all that text. When > given a choice between Eastern and Western medicine I will go > with the Western Medicine. I am a very fast typer so it took no time (thank doG for spell check). I only provided the info on Eastern medicine because it seems Western medicine is not helping much. > > Max has had calcium oxalte uroliths. The diets that are associated > with the lowest reoccurrence of these uroliths is low in protein, > low in sodium chloride, and low in oxalates. > > http://www.ccjm.org/pdffiles/HALL1102.PDF > > The list which you kindly entered contains many protein sources and foods like > wheat and celery that are high in oxalates. Thank you for the link, since I do not know much about uroliths. I did not provide amounts of protein/grains/vegetables (Proteins: clam, duck, egg, pork. Grains: millet, barley, wheat. Vegetables: lettuce, celery, broccoli, spinach, tomato, napa cabbage) so this is not to say you should feed high protein. These would just be the choices. And also, these were not for the uroliths directly, but for urinary tract infections, which is what I thought was the original problem. You would need to go back to the beginning and cure that problem since the others may be come directly from the UTI. Looking at old posts now, I see I am wrong. I'll have to look into bladder infections now;o) > > Thanks again for your concern and efforts, > > > --Marshall No problem. The more I look things up for other people, the more I learn. René The Puppy Wizard HOWEDY Rene, "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:vhc6jssqj3ts81@corp.supernews.com... > > Congratulations Marshall, on giving a home prepared diet a try! I hope > everything works out for your Max. Keep us posted! > > René > The Puppy Wizard is gonna be very sad watchin Maxie DIE on accHOWEnt of to SAVE HIM, professor SCRUFF SHAKE will have to do STUFF HE DON'T LIKE, and he AIN'T GONNA DO IT - He's gonna haveta stop HURTIN HIS DOG. The Puppy Wizard will have bitter sweet REVENGE, EITHER WAY. ENJOY YOUR PAIN, professor SCRUFF SHAKE. THAT'S HOWE COME The Puppy Wizard came here... The Puppy Wizard. <} : ~ ( > HOWEDY People, The Puppy Wizard trains People all over the Whole Wild World, to train their dogs using NUTHIN but the Pure Perfect Power Of Potentialized Pleasure Of Prolonged Non Physical Praise, for FREE. HOWE DOES the Pure Perfect Power Of Potentialized Pleasure Of Prolonged Non Physical Praise work? LIKE FREAKIN MAGICK, GODDAMNIT! The Puppy Wizard's dogs have NEVER seen HIM cast a frown or evil eye in their direction or shamed, criticized, or negatively interacted or corrected them NO WAY, NO HOWE, on accHOWEnt of - IT DON'T WORK. There's ABSOLUTELY NO APPUPRIATE WAY to HURT, INTIMIDATE, or FORCE, a dog or child. HOWE COME? Cause The Puppy Wizard SEZ SO. THAT'S HOWE COME. And THAT'S JUST HOWE IT IS. The Puppy Wizard. <} : ~ ) > "misty" <Momisty@webtv.net wrote in message news: 16990-3CAB1F8C-1@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net... I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her loss. I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of how you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea that my using a shock collar could have any bearing on Peach not wanting to stay home. Up until I started using it my main concern had been keeping my dogs in their own yard. Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my concern became how to keep them from running off for days on end. I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the anti- shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades. I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained, doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all the time. IOW a great companion and friend. Thanks Jerry! ===================== misty" <Momisty@webtv.net> wrote in message news:6946-3B6337A1-329@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs, > two collars We now have one dog and no collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back > in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn't > come back home. > I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. > She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces > her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the > road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes > when we walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and > its collars. If you can't get a regular fence then you need to > train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my > dog in our yard again. > The price was too high:-( > ~misty -------------------------------- <"Terri"@cyberhighway > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Robert Crim writes: I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care. > And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box. I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by > Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL! I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right. >Terri Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) Hello People, Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT. ---------------------------------------------- Margaret Hoffman Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for about one year. It truly does work - at least on my Dobe, Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him personally work with Chelsea. His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn't dream of hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash. She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long story and I won't bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us. Marge Hoffman. (REWARD PAID BY DW.) P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won't sell you my DDR! "Charlie Wilkes" <charlie_wilkes@easynews.com> wrote in message news:pjaootcg8dgrptuu96383933eqk2jjp7b2@4ax.com... > I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the > literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make > the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this once or twice, just by > taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible. The pup > got scared and just wanted to stay away from me. > That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits' End Dog > Training manual -- that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around > great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this: make yourself > the center of your puppy's world -- his personal Lord Jesus. Never > give him a reason to fear you or think you're angry. Love the heck > out of him, and you'll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do anything I want her > to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent, and > nothing is more important in her world than her relationship with me. > Charlie Hi Jerry, I received email from Mark Shaw on 10/6 which I just read today. Sorry I didn't have time to get to it sooner. We have had a lot going on in our area concerning animals. We formed a new Task Force to address spay/neuter, pet overpopulation and animal abuse. I needed to do a lot of research before the first meeting and time was just not available for anything else. Anyway the letter went on to say that we are in collusion, I tried to defraud him, and have sent none of the materials that he has asked for although he has yet to furnish the P.O. Box number that he wanted them sent to in the first place. He goes on to state that I am no longer eligible for the "fictions reward." All of this is in answer to postings that prove I was "sharing" his email with you which in his opinion was a breach of good manners. His email only had terms and conditions of the reward which I would consider "public information." Be that as it may, I would like to state that you had my permission to post any email I have sent you regarding DDR including this email. I'm very sorry that you have to put up with this type of situation from someone that obviously never intended to make good on his reward offer in the first place. I had a call from a friend of mine with a very aggressive cat. I have loaned her my DDR for a few weeks to see if it will calm JR down. I will let you know the results. She goes to the same holistic vet that I go to and he is also interested. In case Mark does post to the list again I would like to say that I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it has helped my dogs and cats. I have entirely too much to do, to worry about his opinions or reward. The only reason I was willing to apply for the reward was on your behalf as I do think your product is a valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior problems. I am in Feral Cat Network (we spay and neuter approximately 100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club, president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager, head of animal control, director of two different shelters, etc.). I listed these not to be on an ego trip but to let Mark know that I am involved with animals and have very little time to play games with him also I would not recommend your product if I did not believe in it. Please feel free to post this email as it has no copyright on it as did Mark Shaw's last email to me. Take care Jerry and don't let the Mark's of the world get you down. Elaine Thank you, Elaine. I have been trying to educate the mark's of this world, with some occasional successes. I guess that's variable reinforcement? Yours, Jerry. Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue writes: Sep 9, 2000 "I ordered from Jerry a long time ago.. He was helpful and the order was filled promptly. Yes, Doggie Do Right does indeed exist. I "had" a very aggressive female Pit.. She was showing aggression not only towards Dok, Rhodesian Ridgeback, but our cats and even us. She now plays with Dok, even to the point of allowing him to take a toy or bone from her. She no longer shows any aggression towards us. She is showing some aggression towards the cats but that is down to a warning growl. It is not just my opinion that all this aggression existed before Doggie Do Right as we were advised by three vets to euthanize her. I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it has helped my dogs and cats. I do think your product is a valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior problems. I am in Feral CatNetwork (we spay and neuter approximately 100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club, president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager, head of animal control, director of two different shelters, etc.). Thanks, Elaine, "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." -Leo Tolstoy- Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: CAVEAT If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or punish your dog in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows HOWE. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits' End Dog Training ThePuppyWizard@EarthLink.Net http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow to make him smarter. The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe- Pennie "Rene" <nospam@nospam.com> said: >Congratulations Marshall, on giving a home prepared diet a try! I hope >everything works out for your Max. Keep us posted! Ditto Rene's comments Marshall =) I'm glad you've found something that's working for Max. Pennie Let Food Be Our Medicine. -Hippocrates The Puppy Wizard HOWEDY professor SCRUFF SHAKE, You DO remember KILLFILING Marilyn?: "Marshall Dermer" <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message news:bf6db0$fri$1@uwm.edu... > > Thanks Pennie. > > Max had some gas when we started this black-eyed pea/brown rice > diet but he no longer has gas. > > The real issue for us right now is whether his "attacks" will > continue. If they abate we won't know if it is due to the Actigal > or the diet. We'll, of course, discontiune the Acitgal at a cost > of about $1.35/pill/day. :-) > > As for the diet, cooking the food takes some time but he > really likes it. To put this another way, with the Canine U/D > he would take a piece of kibble out of the bowel and move > it several feet away. He would do this with many pieces until he > would begin eating. > > I never thought much of this until I remembered that rats scatter > their food when the smell of a newly introduced food has been > correlated with delayed poisoning. Of course, I am not saying > the canine u/d is poison. :-) > > --Marshall Narcissistic Personality Disorder - HOWE The Snake Eats Itself Date: 2003-06-30 22:16:25 PST "Tallgrass" <tallgrassprairie@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:aeb1ce4e.0306291001.fbe4c19@posting.google.com... > "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWizard@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<CGpLa.17038$C83.1595898@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>... > > HOWEDY Dra. Linda, > > > > The following information MAY be enough > > for you to arrive at a clinical diagnosis... if > > you're REAL sharp: > > While I enjoy a good challenge, and aknowledge the gauntlet has been > thrown to the ground, diagnosing on the net would at best be > speculative on my part. Not that I am not up to this, just that I > value my licence, the key to my livelihood! > > But it sure is interesting to read some of these posts and wonder just > what prompts some of these posts, what fuels them. > > Linda H. and her spoiled, narcissistic dogs > HOWE The Snake Eats Itself Date: 2001-04-06 01:19:45 PST Hello Marilyn, Nice to hear from you today. I hope you're not going to waste our time again with more of your Purely Positive training crap. WE want methods that make the dogs do as we tell them, not wasting months trying to mollycoddle dogs into actually learning something. "Marilyn" <marilynbergeman@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3acca309_2@news2.vip.uk.com... > Hi, this isn't for the experts.... Is that because the "experts" won't understand it because their expertise gets in the way of their thinking and reason, or is it because our "experts" are unable to learn new information? I think there's more to your statement than meets the eye. > it's for anyone who has a new puppy and needs help... HOWE about if they've got a real old puppy and still need help? > Teaching my Puppy before he comes to school > Marilyn Bergeman © March 2001 Of course, you're going to defend "dog schools" because you probably think they're all as good as yours. You train what, about a hundred dogs a month? Most dog schools are not dog schools, they're people schools for fledgling dog handlers taught by floundering dog "trainers." > Communication Errors in Teaching Dogs steve boyer, lyindogDUMMY, lyingfrosty dahl, lying"I LOVE KOEHLER,"lynn all know HOWE to communicate in a language dogs understand. They're quite clear about this. There's no need to fix something that ain't broke, Marilyn. Why do you bother to waste your time and effort here? > Most of us have been brought up with the idea that the words > used to train a dog are heel, sit, stay, come, down, stay, leave > and/or no etc. Our new puppy however, knows not the foggiest > about these sounds. And neither do the new puppy owners, that's why they fall victim to the confusing language of our experts, learning new words like crate train, dominance, alpha rollover, corrections, chin cuff, scruff shake, consistancy, and kindness. We don't need to redefine words, our Gang Of Thugs have done all the work for us... Why fix something that ain't broke? > For some of us, on first saying 'sit' - with natural skills in > body language, That's what the stick is for, Marilyn. See the threads containing 'stick train' or 'stick fetch.' > by pointing upwards and saying sit for instance, I may well > achieve a sit from puppy. Tricky... I like that. That's my biggest problem, Marilyn. My puppies constantly OUTSMART me. It's a full time job keeping up with staying ahead of them. > This wouldn't be due to him understanding the human language, > but merely the result of natural body motion - lowering his back > quarters in order to look upwards towards my finger. Do you Britts have the expression "pull my finger?" Just a thought... Hey, if some Gringo asks you to pull their finger? Don't. Just say "NO." > Even then, he wouldn't necessarily associate the word 'sit' with > the action of sitting. .. You'd throw him the finger? Do you Britts have that expression also? > (the word 'sit' was said while pup was still standing and perhaps > forgotten by the time he actually sits). Right. Dog's thoughts come and go quickly, unless our timing and praise are able to lock their thoughs on the commands we're teaching. That's why I insist on prolonged, non physical praise. Sometimes a dog will think for ten seconds before responding to the sound distraction and praise before he'll follow through. That's O.K. If we follow it through properly we'll extinguish that behavior quickly and permenantely. > If I were to reward the sit with a treat, then pup could assume > the sitting position to mean 'if I do this, I get food'. Exactly. Marilyn, I think this informaton is more relevant to our "experienced" trainers than to our newbies, on account of a newbie wouldn't have any basis to question your instructions derived from your observations and understandings of dogs' thinking and behavior over the past thirty years. One of our posters called us the un trainers, because we make it look like we're not working when we're training the hardest. > If pup doesn't receive food next time I point to the sky and say > 'sit', (which is quite likely), he may decide that he made a mistake, > and 'standing' is what's required in order to get the food treat when > that 'sit-sound' happens. So, already we have a pup who doesn't > know if the sit-sound means 'sit', 'stand', 'look to the sky', or > 'treat time'. Right. By the time our "experts" praise a command, the dog is no longer THINKING of the command, and the dog does not learn quickly and effectively. This often is cause for the dog to recieve a correction. Unfortunately these "corrections" most often occur AT THE MOMENT he's processing the thoughts of doing exactly what we wanted to train. So when our koheleresque and uncle maddy type trainers give a command and if the dog don't do it they tell him NO and give a jerk, well they just jerked the dog out of processing the thought of the command and possibly instilled an aversion to the command. Consequently, the next time the command is issued the dog may reflex his thoughts to the correction the previous time he heard the word sit and flash back reflexively with a snap or bite at the handler. We all know what that means. We got a rebellious dog on our hands and we've got to dominate him. So we tell him to sit and really mean it. BYE BYE BIRDIE. Correcting a behavior can teach the dog we mean something entirely different than what we think we're teaching him. That's why our "experts" spend months training behaviors you and I can straighten out in minutes, because we don't focus on our training objectives, we focus on motivating the dogs' desire to follow our thinking and the dog will have the same objectives we have. It's so simple, yet so hard to grasp. Clicker training limits the dog's thinking process. The step by step approach to achieving a behavior outcome subverts the dog's ability to appreciate the concept of the command. The goal should be to teach a response and generalize the idea.. The command sit to a force trained dog means "fall in to a perfect sit." To our dogs the request to sit generates images in the dog's head of all of the most pleasant experiences he's enjoyed while sitting througout his life, like sitting in front of the fireplace or sitting there just looking out the window, or sitting at the heel position, or sitting next to you on the seat of the car, or at the dinner table. There's no stress associated with the commands, therefore the dog will have many more "memory locator tags" to help pull down a variety of thoughts of experiences associating the word and the mental picture. Dogs think in pictures, not words. Too bad our "experts" are not willing to change HOWE they think about HOWE dogs think and learn. It's their experience and occasional successes, that keeps them beating a dead horse. Like our pronged choke and shock collar fans. If they knew what they were doing, they'd get the hell outta the dog training business and leave it to the real pros... who don't need to hurt dogs to train them. > So, I have a puppy who delighted me last night by performing the > perfect sit on command, but now just stands there drooling ..(I've > forgotten the body sign - finger pointing upwards). I feel > disappointed and frustrated - And our "experts" misinterpert that to mean the dog is throwing them the dew claw, so they assault the dog with their choke and shock devices... > the whole family's watching with anticipation, to witness this > wondrous feat I've been boasting about all day - Yeah. I never show off new tricks, because the dog will queer you every time we screw up by overlooking such innocuous things as the distraction of the friends or family member now in the picture. That wasn't in the dog's original picture of the comman. See? Now he's got to get them details sorted out before he is capable of accessing the memory of the sit he'd done previously. Any variables can throw a monkey wrench into the works. > Something has to be done - 'Come on Ruffus, show 'em what you > can do... sit.SIT. SIT.SIT-DOWN!!! - Oh dear. another > communication boo-boo - 'Down' means something else - Right. But even thinking of us having just committed that error will distract us from the pregnant idea, that of timing the thought of the command to the praise, rather than the action. It should be "sit, good boy, nice dog, that's a gooood fella, thar ya go, allright. nice dog" and he'll probably slide right into it for you, if he's ever had a fleeting association of the command in the past. Sure, it's not fast, but we gotta start somewhere. Once the idea is there, we can fire him up just as fast as youd like using some other conditioning techniques. > but will puppy understand that when the day comes we teach > him to lay flat on the floor, or will he think it means 'sit'??? - Only if we are thinking like a human. Dogs don't think like we do. We've got to think like them. And then we've got to use our human thinking to OUTWIT them. As our friend wm. koehler says: "this calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand." > Anyway, going back to my demonstration.. Please do. Our "experts" like janet boss or professora "chin cuff" and blackman or cindymooreon boob maida and lyingdogDUMMY and lia altshuller and lyingfrosty dahl think dog training is a physical contest and can't be learned unless you've got some maggot like them to show you HOWE to jerk and choke your dog. That's why they use pronged choke and shock collars and beat dogs with sticks and kill them when they become fearful of the critter they've been abusing under the disguise called training. Someone asked if anyone could explain the forced fetch, so cindymooreon tells her "well, ummm no. you should find a local trainer and have them show you." I'd like to have her show me that in front of a criminal judge and jury. HOWE about you? > puppy didn't like me raising my voice and has scurried off across > the room - the whole family's laughing at me ... No, I'm not > giving up - I know he can do it .. 'Come here Ruffus - we're going > to try again. Come on.. Come here! ...Right now let's show > em..SIT !!! Yes, we jump the gun when we are provoked to make the dog respond. The more serious the behavior, the more aggressively we try to force it further complicating the training and frustrating and alienating the dog. The excitement our "experts" describe when their dogs know they're going to class, is fear ANXIETY. > Pup starts to tremble.. He's no idea what's going on, and scurries > off again. Puppy has learned that the 'Sit-Sound' is one to be > feared. O.K. Accdents can happen. Nobody's perfect. Our timing might have been off or we startled the dog or whatever, we don't need to bum out over it. Just ask the dog to come and praise him and sit in front of you (a subordinate action) as a default for not following through with the command. Get him settled and sitting straight and return him to heel, (an equal partner position), and he's good to go for another attempt to try the command again, with a fresh start. > He's also learned that coming to me has unpleasant > consequences. Yes, our "experts" are fond of the consequences and the notion dogs know right from wrong and make conscious decisions and should be admonished, that the dog KNOWS he's not supposed to do something, beause you've punished him for that behavior. That suggests an obstinate dog who will challenge their "authority." The forthcoming attemts to dominate and subordinate the dog provokes his survival instinct, triggering the fight or flight reflex... Do you see HOWE the snake eats itself? Hence the term "IDIOPATHIC RAGE." Moore professional dog trainer talk in a language professional trainers can easily undertand but impossible for them to define... That's why they hate me so and I don't blame them one damn bit. Yeah, I deserve it. Thanks Gang.. > Unfortunately, it doesn't end there - You got that straight. j;~} > this fear of the 'sit-sound' could be transferred to anything pup may > associates it to in the future. Yes, I just addressed that, I should have read ahead. > For instance, say the next day... pup hears dad walking up the > path, gets excited as he opens the front door, and I say 'ok Ruffus, > it's only dad - SIT' (just as the door opens). Instead of a warm greeting and THEN a request to sit. The pup only wants to say HI!, and like a little kid, they're not going to lay off till they're acknowledged and satisfied. It only takes a moment, but they learn they are not being rejected or ignored, that they are a member of the family and that satisfies them. They have no further need for attention, their needs have been met. But when we attempt to restrain the dog, their desire continues to pique till they're in a rage of hyperactivity screaming for attention. Can that be FEAR of rejection? Our efforts to control them now become confrontation, causing insecurity with their most favorite people. That's why the use of distraction and praise techniques will effectively extinguish a behavior by simply not allowing fulfillment of it several times in succession. The behavior is not repressed, but driven to distraction, so to speak j;~), thus avoiding replacement or transfer behaviors as anxiety relief mechniasms. Utopia? About as close as you can come to it in this realm of existence. > the fear of the 'sit-sound' could be coupled with the action of a > door opening. If Ruffus were to yap at the door everytime he > thought it was going to open, and I continued to give him cause to > believe his concern - by reprimanding him, I could end up with an > adult dog that attacks people coming through the door. EXACTLY. That's what got that little dog in "interested in hearing" and that's what killed Sampson and that's what's gonna kill stephie's and liea's dogs... Canis55 calls that superstitious behavior, I call that a "flashback." It's very similar to PTSD we hear about with veterans. But what our Einsteins' can't fathom is that it's not the degree of force, fear, or confrontation. ANY confrontation or barrier or restriction or force can trigger anxiety which will cause out of control behavior forcing an untenable situation. That's traditional dog training, folks. > This is just one of many examples where innocent communication > errors can confuse our dog, hindering long-term success, > (sometimes, creating an aggressive dog) - ABSOLUTELY. But our "experts" have no idea what you're talking about. They're a simple breed, dog trainers... > It's also one very good reason why > we should never rely solely on food rewards in dog training. There's lots of good reasons to avoid food bribes. They can trigger aggression and the bad part about that is you don't find out about it till you're counting stumps. I shudder when "behaviorists" tell people to bribe dogs to make them friendly. Sure, it works probably moore often than not. But when they don't work, we've got that damned snake eating itself again. Don't you think we'd get fed up with losing some of our best dogs because we want to tailor our approach to the dog's "personality?" > Dog Logic - Reward not Punishment Right. Dogs do not associate scolding, punishment, or confinement with the behaviors they had just done, because their mind is no longer thinking of the past behavior. Our "experts" contradict themselves on this. They tell us we can't correct a housebreaking accident that occured earlier. Yet they'll tell you to punish aggression after the fact punish for chewing furniture while you were out. koehler recommends tying a chewed article or piece of it into the dog's mouth for a couple of days so he'll scratch his face and ears to punish him for chewing. What's up with that? Bear in mind, most of our Gang Of Thugs are devout koehler trainers, althought they's skirt around that too. Besides all that, we CAN address behaviors that occured earlier, IF you know HOWE. > So how do I avoid these mistakes - it sounds seriously > complicated! It's only complicated if we CONTINUE to think like a human. > As John Fisher said.. we have to 'Think Dog'. Our "experts" would rather take control and lower themselves to fight with dogs for "control, status, or dumbinance." It makes them feel POWERFUL, competent, satisfies their anger and frustration, and perpetuates the dog's behavior problems, so they are always being called on for more training advice for OTHER behavior problems that arise as substitute or replacement behaviors... But they LIKE that, it makes them feel NEEDED and IMPORTANT, and their savvy sounding language impresses guillible newbies.... to the extent that good people will hurt and kill their dogs, on the say so of Thugs who NEED to hurt dogs to tain them because they've HIT THE WALL for information, ideas, and techniques. > While we're 'TEACHING' pup, let's forget about 'Commanding' .. EXACTLY. Commands challenge the dog to rebel... That's why we hear our "experts" talking about "adolescent unruliness." > and think about 'Recognition'. Recognition Training - We start by > making a list of all the things we would like our dog to do - we > don't concern ourselves with what we don't want him to do - I don't > believe they understand what's not there. Exactly. We can teach our dogs to do anything we want, if we are smart enough to outwit the puppy dog. > In other words we can't identify what not to do with anything - Right. Dogs don't understand "don't do this or that." They have no problem understanding DO do this or that, but "don't do?" That don't compute to their terms of thinking. That's why our "experts" fear me and you and Canis55 and dougDogmanager and Master_222 and Parker and Aspiring Trainer and Ray the Vet Tech and Ray the RSPCA guy and Colette the trainer from UK and Jeremy and Paul B and even their own, long time FORMER favorite poster Robert Crim, who learned the HARD WAY that Jerry is right. Ask Fritz. Ask Sampson. Ask that little dog in the thread "interested in hearing." Or you could just ask me... and I'll tell ya to learn about training dogs in the FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual, or your excellent book at http://www.soundplaydogs.com > we need to prepare ourselves - I'd say most of us have a lot we need to learn before even looking at or speaking to our dogs again... > design a versatile vocabulary Yes, I read the list (deleted below to avoid confusing this next point). > whereby we can distract and interrupt behaviours we don't want > and immediately introduce an alternative behaviour that our dog > already understands - NOPE. Slight disagreeement there, M. I do not want to DISTRACT the dog with another behavior, or physical contact, or a food treat until the dog has fully EXTINGUISHED HIS DESIRE for the behavior we were addressing. Once we commence to address a behavior we should work on it untill it is properly extinguished or discontinued because of complications that may require a little more ingenuity instead of a heavy hand. That way, we don't have to face the same behavior problem again because we've scientifically extinguished it... By allowing the dog to attempt to resume the undesirable behavior, we can EXTINGUISH BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS, one after the other, till we have no behavior problems left to deal with. We can take a hyperactive, out of control dog and simply interrupt every outlet of his anxiety behavior till he has none left to chose from, and finally lays down and relaxes for the first time while fully conscious. Once a dog like that learns to be comfortable with being comfortable, they hyperactive behavior has been extinguished. EZ stuff, huh? We WANT the dog to repeatedly attempt the inappropriate behavior so we may repeatedly BRIEFLY distract and praise the THOUGHT of whatever he is thinking of at the instant following the distraction... EVEN IF WE CANNOT SEE IT HAPPENING. Your video still were very revealing in this regard. > we then reward the desired alternative behaviour. No. Then we break our attention from the dog and allow him to attempt to resume the undesirable behavior AGAIN, so we can once again address it till it is properly extinguished. It's a bit of a stretch in thinking, but it works like MAGICK. > Suggested Vocabulary: <snip good stuff> > Then prepared and ready to design a 'distract/interrupt Followed by prolonged non physical praise, and then we WAIT. Wait for the undesirable behavior to almost begin to resume. I've got a major difference in protocol here... This is THE stumbling block for almost everyone here. Let's discuss it and resolve it, because ONE of us is in error, perhaps only to a small degree... but nonetheless, ever hear of the "Princess and the pea?" > and introduce new-behaviour program' - NO. Call me Princess. I can't get past not allowing the dog to think of resuming the inappropriate behavior till it's fully extinguished. The idea is the dog will attempt to repeat an undesirable behavior as we interrupt and praise him. After several interruptions, the dog will think of commencing the behavior again but will hesitate. THAT MOMENT of hesitation tells us the dog is understanding what we're trying to show him, so we praise that thought, even though we expect he's going to go ahead and do it again anyway. That's O.K., we praise him anyway as he thinks of resuming the behavior, and wait till he makes his attempt again, make the distraction and praise, and the behavior is extinguished, at least in that one environment. Then we generalize it. I don't sleep well with a pea in my matress... > There's never the need to use 'No' or 'Leave'. Exactly. > -- > Marilyn Bergeman > Somerset, UK > Domestic Dog Trainer > www.soundplaydogs.com > Author of 'Essentials for the Domestic Dog Owner' with six week > training course - ISBN: 0953890619. Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. <} ; ~ } > TOTE@dog-play.com In rec.pets.dogs.behavior Marshall Dermer <dermer@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote: > I now try to get Max to urinate at least twice whenever I walk him. > The command for urination/defecation has been "achshav" (which means > "now' in Hebrew) and the reinforcers are pieces of rice cake, a low > oxalate food. > We walked for 3.5 miles today and he urinated just 4 times. What a frustrating set of problems. I don't remember what steps you have been taking to increase his water intake. As long as you are cooking for him maybe consider making your own chicken broth of just chicken and water. See if that increases his liquid intake. Curious about your water. What kind of water is Max getting? Is it tap water? Mineral content? Our water is excellent and very soft so I often forget to consider it. The parathyroid controls calcium levels in the blood. If the parathyroid "decides" a higher blood calcium level is needed it will rob it from the bones if it is not available by diet. Is there any reason to suspect parathyroid involvement? http://groups.google.com/groups?sel...0nnrp1.deja.com Diane Blackman Marshall Dermer In article <9hifhvslmb7kqng29ssce3d3f1mu5ff590@4ax.com> mutleycrew@thedoghouse.com writes: > >Wow, at least the Actigal has gone down in price since Chase had to >take it when she had liver disease. 2 years ago the cheapest I could >get it was 6.00 a pill. Well, Max weighs in at 18 lbs. How much does Chase weigh. When our last dog died, some 17 years ago, the vet suggested that we get a smaller dog because among other things the dog's meds would cost less. He did not, however, mention that A PURE-BREED DOG MIGHT BE MORE LIKELY TO HAVE HEALTH PROBLEMS THAN A MIXED-BREED. (Do you think the assertion in upper-case letters is true?) Our previous dog, Girl, was apparently a labXGSD. I had found her on campus, brought her to the humane society, but no one claimed her so we adopted her. She was about 6 years old. (I had no idea how dogs lived.) She lived 7 more years and I guess died of cancer at 13. Although she had a few problems as she grew older, they were treated with estrogen (urination) and testosterone (She had trouble climbing stairs when she was about 11). I really could only buy a weeks worth at a >time, but it seemed to help. >I'll be interested in hearing how he does once you stop the Actigall, >you'll have to let us know. Yes, I wonder about this too. As I noted the vet really could not specify the particular problem. The Agtical was an "educated guess." His previous "educated guess" was Pepcid AC. These attacks occur with about once every 30 days although the interval was only two weeks between the last two attacks. Between attacks my dog is quite frisky. >>As for the diet, cooking the food takes some time but he >>really likes it. > >I'm so happy you've found something Max really likes, and is good for >him too. Keep us posted. OK Pennie and thanks for your interest. --Marshall PS: One great part about Max's new diet is that I can eat the food too. I was looking for a protein source for dinner this evening and I decided to have: black-eyed peas and brown rice! I can even eat Max's food with the bone meal, salts, and olive oil. I guess I could have eaten the Hills U/D but I'm not a big fan of pork or "pork digest."

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