| Birdie Bickering - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page |
| mmarteen |
This is actually a spin off from the 2nd cockatiel thread on
alt.pets.parrots.cockatiels, as I thought it more appropriate here.
How much bickering do you let your birds do? We have birds that generally do
not mix but are kept in the same big room, each with their separate area: a
cockatiel, a white bellied caique and a hahn's macaw, all males, all
apparently alpha males from what we have been able to gather. The Emile the
tiel is a good sized, square shouldered magnificent crested specimen, he
knows that the other two are bigger than he is and will not pick a fight
(thank God!) If Rocky, the adventurous caique gets into his business, Emile
will generally scream his head off, extend his wings and crest so he appears
twice his size but he will also back away slowly. A couple of times Emile
has ended up on Simon, the hahn's cage after a sudden scare and for some
reason, he feels compelled to try to fight simon or stand his ground.
(Simon is a younger bird but being of a different species, could he know
that?) Simon is of course bigger than him and could probably kill him if he
wanted to. Simon sometimes antagonizes Emile by reaching for his tail if he
can get to it.
Our general idea with Emile is just protect him, get him away from the other
birds when he accidently crosses paths with them.
With the bigger two birds, it is a bit more complicated. They are about the
same size, we would never put them together but again, they have gotten
together on their own. One day I went outside to check on something and I
came back in and both Rocky and Simon were sitting on the couch, on opposite
ends. Another time, in a similar situation I actually observed them flying
to the couch, one after the other, "beaking" eachother breifly in a fairly
aggressive way, but before I could intervene, something was settled between
them, because Simon started walking away to the other side of the couch.
My husband says I should stand by and let them do this, that once they get a
"pecking order" established they will remain comfortable with that. I am
concerned about the consequences of a fight. Rocky, although slightly
smaller has a seriously sharp beak. Although he is a wonderful little guy,
we both have puncture wound scars on our hands from when he got just a
little too excited or misunderstood a situation. Then again, we aren't
birds and the contact with the other birds has been pretty much beak to
beak.
I recall Old Molly and Marc Marrone seem to have the luck of lots of birds
that get along or were all raised together. Does anyone else have my kind of
situation?
mm
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| Toucanldy |
>My husband says I should stand by and let them do this, that once they get a
>"pecking order" established they will remain comfortable with that.
There is no such thing as "pecking order," among parrots. There is only the
more aggressive bird, as the bully, that the others try to avoid. Caiques can
be killers, toward other birds So far you have been lucky. This is an accident
waiting to happen. :(
Regards
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| oldmolly |
"Toucanldy" <toucanldy@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031119172443.03468.00000554@mb-m29.aol.com...
>
> >My husband says I should stand by and let them do this, that once they
get a
> >"pecking order" established they will remain comfortable with that.
>
> There is no such thing as "pecking order," among parrots. There is only
the
> more aggressive bird, as the bully, that the others try to avoid. Caiques
can
> be killers, toward other birds So far you have been lucky. This is an
accident
> waiting to happen. :(
>
You have to firstly know your birds. I would never mix birds which a/
didn't know each other
b/ were of widly different sizes
c/ of a species that were territorial or naturally stroppy.
I would not mix most poicephalus, caiques or lovebirds with other species,
and even with thier own species, very carefully. I would never have a
situation where one bird was able to land on top of another birds cage
unless all birds were out of their cages.
The post rferred to was about mixing tiels, and I stated that I simply
place the newcomer into the cage/aviary with the flock and they like the
borg simply assimmilate. There may initially be some squabbling and I do
firmly believe that in birds which normall live in hige flocks communially,
there is some kind of heirachy. I called it a pecking order for lack of a
different term.I cited the case here where I have recently, placed into a
large new cage, a patagonian ('jessibelle') a mitred (doddy) and a nanday
(charlie). The birds knew each other although they had never shared a cage.
'doddy' was a slightly bolshy boisterous character, although not aggressive,
Jessibelle was quieter, and charlie the nanday the oldest of the lot,who had
never been near other birds until he came to me. I put them all into the new
cage, with 3 feed stations, lots of perches and toys and sat and watched.
Initially doddy tried to chase jessibelle away form 'his' feed pot, but
backed off when I told him off, jessibell now happily shared a pot with him.
I'm not going to go into the mechanics of how they all reacted together on
day one, or how they now react together, but I will say that I know my
birds, I would not put certain birds together, but these I had a feeling
would be fine.They are all of a similar size.The bickering I referred to was
not out and out fighting or bullying, and I did say that on first
introductions, the bird owner *must* stay within earshot just in case.
I don't advocate people putting different birds together willy nilly but it
*can* be done. You have to know your birds, and follow certain ground rules.
Even the amazon and african grey who live together occasionally swear at
each other, but ultimately are happier living together than seperate and
will groom each other and Cuppy will mutter endearments to Piper.
I would *never* allow pandora the U2 to be with another bird. I *know* she
would kill or maim, there are several other birds I would never mix, but the
ones I *have* mixed, have been introduced carefully, and picked because they
are of a size and character.
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| mmarteen |
"oldmolly" <oldmolly1@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0vSub.3216$4Y6.1111@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
>
> "Toucanldy" <toucanldy@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20031119172443.03468.00000554@mb-m29.aol.com...
> >
> > >My husband says I should stand by and let them do this, that once they
> get a
> > >"pecking order" established they will remain comfortable with that.
> >
> > There is no such thing as "pecking order," among parrots. There is only
> the
> > more aggressive bird, as the bully, that the others try to avoid.
Caiques
> can
> > be killers, toward other birds So far you have been lucky. This is an
> accident
> > waiting to happen. :(
That would be Rocky probably. Although sometimes Simon seems to be the
instigator of aggression. They are of a similar size. We tried to
introduce Rocky to another male Caique once (a freind's) and he immediately
chased the bird away from his own cage and started eating his food. The
other bird tried to preen Rocky but Rocky would chase him away. We quickly
put an end to that little social experiment.
> >
> You have to firstly know your birds. I would never mix birds which a/
> didn't know each other
> b/ were of widly different sizes
> c/ of a species that were territorial or naturally stroppy.
They are all territorial.
> I would not mix most poicephalus, caiques or lovebirds with other
species,
> and even with thier own species, very carefully. I would never have a
> situation where one bird was able to land on top of another birds cage
> unless all birds were out of their cages.
Maybe I should explain their areas. They all have cages in an upstairs room
where they sleep at night but during the day, they spend their time in 3
separate hanging trees about 2 feet from eachother. Actually, Emile's is a
boing, but we have hung food and a water bottle off of it, as with the
hanging trees for the other birds. They have lots of toys and things to
chew hanging from the separate trees. Generally, they are fine there, all
day playing and Emile only flies off if startled. Sometimes the other birds
accidently slip and flutter to the floor or the back of the couch but only
Emile can fly across the room. All are clipped. I only leave them out like
this if I am at home during the day, which is 90% of the time since I work
at home. They have considerable freedom, they chatter back and forth to
eachother. (Simon has taken to immitating Emile) but they clearly stay in
their defined spaces. For showering, sometimes we put all three in at once.
we have a large shower and all three are on separate perches at different
heights. Rocky and Simon are so into water they pay no attention to
eachother.
> The post rferred to was about mixing tiels, and I stated that I simply
> place the newcomer into the cage/aviary with the flock and they like the
> borg simply assimmilate. There may initially be some squabbling and I do
> firmly believe that in birds which normall live in hige flocks
communially,
> there is some kind of heirachy. I called it a pecking order for lack of a
> different term.I cited the case here where I have recently, placed into a
> large new cage, a patagonian ('jessibelle') a mitred (doddy) and a nanday
> (charlie). The birds knew each other although they had never shared a
cage.
> 'doddy' was a slightly bolshy boisterous character, although not
aggressive,
> Jessibelle was quieter, and charlie the nanday the oldest of the lot,who
had
> never been near other birds until he came to me. I put them all into the
new
> cage, with 3 feed stations, lots of perches and toys and sat and watched.
> Initially doddy tried to chase jessibelle away form 'his' feed pot, but
> backed off when I told him off, jessibell now happily shared a pot with
him.
> I'm not going to go into the mechanics of how they all reacted together on
> day one, or how they now react together, but I will say that I know my
> birds, I would not put certain birds together, but these I had a feeling
> would be fine.They are all of a similar size.The bickering I referred to
was
> not out and out fighting or bullying, and I did say that on first
> introductions, the bird owner *must* stay within earshot just in case.
> I don't advocate people putting different birds together willy nilly but
it
> *can* be done. You have to know your birds, and follow certain ground
rules.
> Even the amazon and african grey who live together occasionally swear at
> each other, but ultimately are happier living together than seperate and
> will groom each other and Cuppy will mutter endearments to Piper.
> I would *never* allow pandora the U2 to be with another bird. I *know*
she
> would kill or maim, there are several other birds I would never mix, but
the
> ones I *have* mixed, have been introduced carefully, and picked because
they
> are of a size and character.
>
From this advice I guess I should just continue to carefully watch all my
birds to try to learn what is harmless bickering, versus
dangerous agression.
Sometimes I wonder though, if my reaction to their getting close to
eachother doesn't encourage their aggression. I remember the first time
Simon and Rocky interacted. It was simon's first day at home and when my
back was turned, Rocky jumped down from his cage and walked over to where
Simon's cage was. Simon, also curious, jumped down from his little trap door
balcony on to the floor. They were on the floor gently beaking eachother
when I discovered this and without thinking said "No Rocky!" Both birds
became agitated and started beaking eachother more agressively and I pulled
them apart. Maybe the gentle beaking was just a prelude to that anyway, or
maybe once I was on the scene, they became jealous or felt threatened and
took it out on the other bird. Anyway the dynamics clearly changed.
mm
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| oldmolly |
"mmarteen" <mmarteen@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bphnak$1o0ckm$1@ID-165117.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "oldmolly" <oldmolly1@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:0vSub.3216$4Y6.1111@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Toucanldy" <toucanldy@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20031119172443.03468.00000554@mb-m29.aol.com...
> > >
> > > >My husband says I should stand by and let them do this, that once
they
> > get a
> > > >"pecking order" established they will remain comfortable with that.
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as "pecking order," among parrots. There is
only
> > the
> > > more aggressive bird, as the bully, that the others try to avoid.
> Caiques
> > can
> > > be killers, toward other birds So far you have been lucky. This is an
> > accident
> > > waiting to happen. :(
>
> That would be Rocky probably. Although sometimes Simon seems to be the
> instigator of aggression. They are of a similar size. We tried to
> introduce Rocky to another male Caique once (a freind's) and he
immediately
> chased the bird away from his own cage and started eating his food. The
> other bird tried to preen Rocky but Rocky would chase him away. We quickly
> put an end to that little social experiment.
>
>
> > >
> > You have to firstly know your birds. I would never mix birds which a/
> > didn't know each other
> > b/ were of widly different sizes
> > c/ of a species that were territorial or naturally stroppy.
>
> They are all territorial.
>
>
> > I would not mix most poicephalus, caiques or lovebirds with other
> species,
> > and even with thier own species, very carefully. I would never have a
> > situation where one bird was able to land on top of another birds cage
> > unless all birds were out of their cages.
>
>
> Maybe I should explain their areas. They all have cages in an upstairs
room
> where they sleep at night but during the day, they spend their time in 3
> separate hanging trees about 2 feet from eachother. Actually, Emile's is
a
> boing, but we have hung food and a water bottle off of it, as with the
> hanging trees for the other birds. They have lots of toys and things to
> chew hanging from the separate trees. Generally, they are fine there, all
> day playing and Emile only flies off if startled. Sometimes the other
birds
> accidently slip and flutter to the floor or the back of the couch but only
> Emile can fly across the room. All are clipped. I only leave them out like
> this if I am at home during the day, which is 90% of the time since I work
> at home. They have considerable freedom, they chatter back and forth to
> eachother. (Simon has taken to immitating Emile) but they clearly stay in
> their defined spaces. For showering, sometimes we put all three in at
once.
> we have a large shower and all three are on separate perches at different
> heights. Rocky and Simon are so into water they pay no attention to
> eachother.
>
>
> > The post rferred to was about mixing tiels, and I stated that I simply
> > place the newcomer into the cage/aviary with the flock and they like the
> > borg simply assimmilate. There may initially be some squabbling and I do
> > firmly believe that in birds which normall live in hige flocks
> communially,
> > there is some kind of heirachy. I called it a pecking order for lack of
a
> > different term.I cited the case here where I have recently, placed into
a
> > large new cage, a patagonian ('jessibelle') a mitred (doddy) and a
nanday
> > (charlie). The birds knew each other although they had never shared a
> cage.
> > 'doddy' was a slightly bolshy boisterous character, although not
> aggressive,
> > Jessibelle was quieter, and charlie the nanday the oldest of the lot,who
> had
> > never been near other birds until he came to me. I put them all into the
> new
> > cage, with 3 feed stations, lots of perches and toys and sat and
watched.
> > Initially doddy tried to chase jessibelle away form 'his' feed pot, but
> > backed off when I told him off, jessibell now happily shared a pot with
> him.
> > I'm not going to go into the mechanics of how they all reacted together
on
> > day one, or how they now react together, but I will say that I know my
> > birds, I would not put certain birds together, but these I had a feeling
> > would be fine.They are all of a similar size.The bickering I referred to
> was
> > not out and out fighting or bullying, and I did say that on first
> > introductions, the bird owner *must* stay within earshot just in case.
> > I don't advocate people putting different birds together willy nilly but
> it
> > *can* be done. You have to know your birds, and follow certain ground
> rules.
> > Even the amazon and african grey who live together occasionally swear at
> > each other, but ultimately are happier living together than seperate and
> > will groom each other and Cuppy will mutter endearments to Piper.
> > I would *never* allow pandora the U2 to be with another bird. I *know*
> she
> > would kill or maim, there are several other birds I would never mix, but
> the
> > ones I *have* mixed, have been introduced carefully, and picked because
> they
> > are of a size and character.
> >
> From this advice I guess I should just continue to carefully watch all my
> birds to try to learn what is harmless bickering, versus
> dangerous agression.
>
> Sometimes I wonder though, if my reaction to their getting close to
> eachother doesn't encourage their aggression. I remember the first time
> Simon and Rocky interacted. It was simon's first day at home and when my
> back was turned, Rocky jumped down from his cage and walked over to where
> Simon's cage was. Simon, also curious, jumped down from his little trap
door
> balcony on to the floor. They were on the floor gently beaking eachother
> when I discovered this and without thinking said "No Rocky!" Both birds
> became agitated and started beaking eachother more agressively and I
pulled
> them apart. Maybe the gentle beaking was just a prelude to that anyway,
or
> maybe once I was on the scene, they became jealous or felt threatened and
> took it out on the other bird. Anyway the dynamics clearly changed.
>
I see a similar thing with dogs. When I have a foster dog or a new rescue
here, I simply open the hatchback of my estate car (station wagon) and the
newbvie jumps out. I walk to the back door and sort of ignore them all. My
lot simply welcome the newcomer, or, if it is afraid, will nose it, and
leave it be. Other people will have their dog on a lead, when they come, and
are terrified that there will be a fight. Ten to one there *will* be. The
leashed dog feels the owners nerves, and knows he cannot run away because he
is leashed, he knows he canjot fight because he is leashed and right away
shows aggression because it is afraid, then my lot see the aggression as a
threat. I expect it is a similar thing.
I have a lot of birds, a lot of species, but I am home all day with them and
know their personalities.I know someone who keeps everything from macaws to
cockatiels, fully flighted loose in a bird room. It *can* be done, but you
must be careful.I don't recommend or advocate it.
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| Max |
> How much bickering do you let your birds do?
None, unless it is the parakeets who all live as flock. I have heard of
too many instances of injury to the small or less aggressive bird to let
difference species any where near each other.
Years ago my grandmother's double yellow-head decided he didn't like her
pionus. They had lived together for some time and seemed to get along okay.
One day the pionus landed on the perch next to Charlie and got his face
bitten so severely that he died in my grandmother's hands. I remember her
warning me never to trust them because you never know what they are thinking
and something like this can happen in an instant.
I was at the vet this summer and a sobbing woman brought in a parrot wrapped
in a towel. She told the receptionist that the birds had always gotten
along fine until they got into an argument. I never did find out the
species but from the size of the blanket it was not a small bird. I was
sitting next to the exam room and heard the doctor tell her that the bird's
neck was broken and that he had to be put to sleep. She cried so hard that
I ended up in tears.
Your husband's idea of a pecking order is apt to get one of your birds
injured or killed. Pecking orders are generally for members of the same
species. Another species, with some exceptions, is regarded as an outsider
to be driven away or dominated...or killed. Don't risk it. Your birds
trust you to keep them safe.
~Max
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| Max |
>The post rferred to was about mixing tiels, and I stated that I simply
>place the newcomer into the cage/aviary with the flock and they like the
>borg simply assimmilate.
Old Molly, you had a fit at me on the cockatiel group for saying that it
wasn't a good idea to just put a newcomer in with other birds. You said
that I didn't read your post thoroughly. Well, I did and you are doing it
again here.
In your diatribe back to me on the other group you said:
>During the quarantine period, they will be familiar with each other because
they will have >been callling to each other.Surely nobody would be so stupid
as to buy a tiel,
>bring it home, and bung it right into the cage of their current tiel?
Why is it that when you talk about putting a new tiel in with others, you
keep leaving this important piece of information out? Is it because you
don't do it?
What you posted both here and on the cockatiel group is missing this
critical bit of information. If you insist on acting the expert, you might
at least bother to give someone asking a question the whole story.
~Max
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| Rick |
"Max" <g_nuby@mail.com.com> wrote in message news:vrs53df26jlv23@corp.supernews.com...
> I was at the vet this summer and a sobbing woman brought in a parrot wrapped
> in a towel. She told the receptionist that the birds had always gotten
> along fine until they got into an argument. I never did find out the
> species but from the size of the blanket it was not a small bird. I was
> sitting next to the exam room and heard the doctor tell her that the bird's
> neck was broken and that he had to be put to sleep. She cried so hard that
> I ended up in tears.
>
> Your husband's idea of a pecking order is apt to get one of your birds
> injured or killed. Pecking orders are generally for members of the same
> species. Another species, with some exceptions, is regarded as an outsider
> to be driven away or dominated...or killed. Don't risk it. Your birds
> trust you to keep them safe.
We've had (and continue to have) our own experiences with this.
We have two male tiels and a female green-cheek conure. The
conure has no problems with one of the tiels, but the other one,
the "alpha male", she's tried to kill twice, with no warning at all.
Now my idiot roommate wants to buy a Caique and have them
all play together. It's only a matter of time before we're scraping
blood off the walls. Again.
Rick
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| Katra |
Rick wrote:
>
> "Max" <g_nuby@mail.com.com> wrote in message news:vrs53df26jlv23@corp.supernews.com...
> > I was at the vet this summer and a sobbing woman brought in a parrot wrapped
> > in a towel. She told the receptionist that the birds had always gotten
> > along fine until they got into an argument. I never did find out the
> > species but from the size of the blanket it was not a small bird. I was
> > sitting next to the exam room and heard the doctor tell her that the bird's
> > neck was broken and that he had to be put to sleep. She cried so hard that
> > I ended up in tears.
> >
> > Your husband's idea of a pecking order is apt to get one of your birds
> > injured or killed. Pecking orders are generally for members of the same
> > species. Another species, with some exceptions, is regarded as an outsider
> > to be driven away or dominated...or killed. Don't risk it. Your birds
> > trust you to keep them safe.
>
> We've had (and continue to have) our own experiences with this.
> We have two male tiels and a female green-cheek conure. The
> conure has no problems with one of the tiels, but the other one,
> the "alpha male", she's tried to kill twice, with no warning at all.
>
> Now my idiot roommate wants to buy a Caique and have them
> all play together. It's only a matter of time before we're scraping
> blood off the walls. Again.
>
> Rick
Is he stupid or what???
I have 3 birds all in the same room, but two of them are in a cage....
One cockatiel, one elderly nanday conure, and a goffin's cockatoo.
Freya the 'too could and would easily kill the other two.
We are remodeling. Once the work is completed, the 'tiel goes back into
my bedroom.
K.
--
>^,,^< Cats-haven Hobby Farm >^,,^< Katra@centurytel.net >^,,^<
"There are millions of intelligent species in the universe, and they are
all owned by cats" -- Asimov
Custom handcrafts, Sterling silver beaded jewelry
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISA...ms&userid=katra
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| deeringmortespam@mindspring.com |
Toucanldy wrote:
>
> >My husband says I should stand by and let them do this, that once they get a
> >"pecking order" established they will remain comfortable with that.
>
> There is no such thing as "pecking order," among parrots. There is only the
> more aggressive bird, as the bully, that the others try to avoid. Caiques can
> be killers, toward other birds So far you have been lucky. This is an accident
> waiting to happen. :(
Agreed. I own a caique, a rainbow lory, and a conure, whose cages
are next to each other. When I let them out to play on top, I have
to supervise because the lory and caique (who are feisty competitive
birds by nature anyway) always try to infringe on each other's
particular play space. They've only gotten into it twice since I've
owned them, but I always break it up because they make it plain they
will fight to the bitter end.
C.
**
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