| Thanks, Danee - was Re: So lets re - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page |
| lin |
Danee, I just want to thank you for discussing this in such a
straight-forward manner, w/ facts as well as common sense.
As a person w/ no experience w/ ADV, I am learning a lot.
Thanks again ~
--
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
To email me back, take out everything from "K" to "2"
"Danee" <DaneeDV@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1130782719.872703.123310@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> swamp wrote:
>> On 30 Oct 2005 07:23:00 -0800, "crittersgalore" <caselman@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Those are all fine sentiments, but AIDS and ADV shouldn't be
>> equivocated. It was discovered early on that AIDS was spread, for the
>> most part, via sexual contact of a specific nature. No judgment, just
>> the way it is. ADV, otoh, is an airborne and oral/fecal pathogen,
>> making it much more dangerous than AIDS from a pathological viewpoint.
>
> Actually, ADV is not a true airborne disease. It can be transmitted
> through saliva, which can be sprayed if the ferret coughs or sneezes,
> but that is not really being airborne. The main way it is spread is
> through the urine and feces. And, yes, that does make it easier to
> spread then HIV/AIDS, especially since ferrets love to sniff the urine
> and feces of other ferrets.
>
>>
>> Lastly, no one gets any pleasure out of recommending euthanasia, and
>> there's no spite or malice either. Selfishness perhaps, as we're
>> putting the safety of healthy ferrets above the concerns for ADV+
>> ferrets, but mostly it comes from a legimate fear. Entire ranches have
>> been wiped out by ADV, w/ thousands of animals put down.
>>
>
> I understand your point of view entirely, Swamp.
>
> However, you can not really compare mink with ferrets. To the
> ranchers, mink have no emotional value. They are kept for their fur.
> And, if several mink get ADV, even if all of the mink must be
> destroyed, they can still be pelted, so they still have some value even
> in death.
>
> A pet ferret is different. There is - or at least should be - an
> emotional attachment.
>
> I will not keep a suffering animal alive just for my own selfish
> desires. But, I could not face putting 9 of my beloved kids down just
> because they had a positive test result. It was easier for me to face
> having to keep them in isolation, then it was to put them down. And
> all of them lived fairly normal lives.
>
> I currently have a little girl who does not have ADV but does have
> lymphoma. Right now, she doesn't know she is sick. She runs and plays
> and enjoys her time. But, she is unhealthy. She has a disease that
> will eventually kill her. Now, it is true that cancer is not a
> contagious disease, and so the comparison between ADV and lymphoma is
> not a good one. Still, as long as she is enjoying her life, I am not
> going to cut it short. And, I feel the same way about my ADV+ kids.
>
> Certainly, my life would have been much easier if I had eathanized the
> positives. However, I do not regret the choice I made.
> --
> Danee
> International Ferret Congress Health Issues Coordinator
> http://www.ferretcongress.org
> ADV - If your ferret hasn't been tested, you don't know!
> For more information visit: http://www.ferretadv.com
> You can help fight ADV!
> Visit: http://help4adv.terrabox.com/
>
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| lin |
"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
news:7klgm1duv89cg0b8rvo2j711g6i35076m3@4ax.com...
> On 31 Oct 2005 10:02:14 -0800, "Danee" <DaneeDV@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>While ADV in ferrets has not been studied nearly as much as is needed,
>>ADV in mink has been. Using the same procedures that they use for the
>>mink studies is what people like Dr, Bloom and Dr. Stevenson recommend.
>
> Earlier you wrote:
>
>>>However, you can not really compare mink with ferrets. To the
>>>ranchers, mink have no emotional value. They are kept for their fur.
>>>And, if several mink get ADV, even if all of the mink must be
>>>destroyed, they can still be pelted, so they still have some value even
>>>in death.
>
> Care to reconcile those two statements?
The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
*model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
"product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more thoroughly.
Think of all the rare diseases humans get. The rarer the disease, the fewer
people are interested in studying it (or if a med is developed for it, they
don't get the funding for their manufacture like more common diseases/meds
get. We've all heard of orphan drugs - drugs that nobody is interested in
producing, cos they don't think they'll get the Big Bucks from their sale,
if not many people will be using them).
That's how *I* read it, anyway. Makes sense to me.
> Mink ranchers cared about $$. Ferret owners care about their ferrets.
> ADV doesn't care about anything.
>
> I care about extirpating ADV among pet ferrets,
Rome wasn't built in a day, unfortunately.
--
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
To email me back, take out everything from "K" to "2"
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| Danee |
lin wrote:
> "swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
> > Care to reconcile those two statements?
>
> The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
> ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
> *model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
> value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
> "product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more thoroughly.
Pretty close.
While the disease may have slightly different effects on mink then on
ferrets, and while it is a different strain of the virus, ADV-F, that
affects ferrets, the various strains are close enough that procedures
in handling one are very likely to hold true for the other. There are
procedures for handling infectious diseases of all types, even if not
much is know about the disease.
Unfortunately, while ADV in mink has been studied for quite some time,
the studies have not been directed toward finding a cure or vaccine.
And, this is largely because, since there is no emotional attachment,
it is easier and less costly to cull and pelt the infected animals.
Most of the studies on ADV have been done by people like Dr. Marshall
Bloom. Dr. Bloom is an MD and a virologist. He has been studying ADV
to learn how viruses that cause auto immune reactions work, so the
information can be applied to similar diseases that affect humans.
Since ferrets are usually kept as companion animals, the idea of
euthanizing infected animals is less appealing to the owners. Now,
there is an interest in finding a cure or vaccine.
Again, I understand Swamp's concern. Every ferret owner should be
aware of ADV, how it is spread, and how to avoid it. This is part of
the education process. But, I still say, I would worry more about the
ferret that hasn't been tested, and might be positive, then I would the
ferret that I know is positive. Most owners of ADV+ ferrets know what
they need to do to protect the ferrets of others. It is the owner that
doesn't know, or worse, doesn't care, that can pose a problem.
When Dr. Bruce Williams spoke at the first Ferret Symposium in Toronto
in 2000, one of his topics was ADV. At that time he said he expected
there to be a major ADV epidemic in ferrets in the US within 10 years.
At this time, I would say, IMHO, his prediction is not going to come
true. But, I think the only reason it isn't is because of the push to
educate all ferret owners on the dangers of ADV, and to stress the
importance of testing every ferret at least twice.
Now, many people say that because they do not take their ferrets into
public places, there is no need for them to test, but I disagree. I
have found that knowing a ferret's ADV status id very important in
making decisions about their health care. And the reason I say ferrets
need to be tested twice is because no test is 100% accurate.
Therefore, the second test is needed to confirm the results of the
first test.
I understand why some feel all ADV+ ferrets should be PTS, regardless
of their condition. But, I feel that those people either don't have
all the facts, or don't trust the owners who do have ADV+ ferrets to be
careful. I can also understand the not trusting others. And, that is
why everyone needs to be diligent in protecting thier own ferrets, not
just from ADV, but from other diseases as well.
I am always bothered when I go to a ferret show, and people have their
ferrets on a leash and are allowing them to walk on the floor. Most
organizations, like the AFA, require proof of ADV testing, so there is
less worry about that. But what about ECE and influenza? What about
parasites like coccidia? These are things that a ferret can have, and
pass on to others ferrets. And, ferrets on the bare floor are a great
way to pass them.
By using common sense, though, we can learn ways to protect our
ferrets. That is what I am trying to advocate. Learn the facts, and
take precautions. Test, test, TEST!
Now, before I close, I will put in a plug. I would hope that Swamp and
I can agree that we both agree ADV is dangerous, and that every ferret
owner needs to learn the facts about it, test their ferrets and take
precautions against it. We may not agree on the safety of allowing
ADV+ ferrets to live, even under carefully controlled circumstances,
but that is OK with me. One last thing I would hope we can agree on is
the importance of ADV research, and specifically ferret related ADV
research.
The U of GA has been doing research on ADV in ferrets now for several
years. Their belief is that with some of the newer technologies, a
vaccine against ADV is possible. However, because the antibodies the
body naturally forms are non-neutralizing, finding said vaccine will be
more difficult, and will also be costly. However, with technologies
like recumbent DNA, it should be possible.
The Carpet Sharks, Ink Yahoo Group is currently running a most
excellent raffle, and the procedes of the raffle will go to the U of GA
for ADV research. Therefore, I would urge people to visit the website
for this, and consider buying some tickets. There are some great
prizes, and the money will go to a great cause.
http://midnightbeaujolais.com/raffle/raffle2.htm
And, for those of you who do not buy raffle tickets, but still want to
contribute to the research, you can make a tax deductible donation
ddirectly to the ADV Research Fund. Checks and money orders should be
made out to "The Arch Foundation", and on the notations line indicate
"for ADV Research". Previously, checks were made out to the University
Foundation, but this changed recently. Anyone with questions about
that can view a FAQ at:
http://www.uga.edu/archfoundation/faq.html
Checks and money orders for the ADV Fund should be sent to the
following person and address:
Kate Pennick, Research Tech III
Dept. of Pathology - Room 148
UGA College of Vet Med
Athens, GA 30602-7388
--
Danee
International Ferret Congress Health Issues Coordinator
http://www.ferretcongress.org
ADV - If your ferret hasn't been tested, you don't know!
For more information visit: http://www.ferretadv.com
You can help fight ADV!
Visit: http://help4adv.terrabox.com/
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| swamp |
On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:43:25 GMT, "lin" <ktnil@KAZMOMX2woh.rr.com>
wrote:
>
>"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
>news:7klgm1duv89cg0b8rvo2j711g6i35076m3@4ax.com...
>> On 31 Oct 2005 10:02:14 -0800, "Danee" <DaneeDV@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>While ADV in ferrets has not been studied nearly as much as is needed,
>>>ADV in mink has been. Using the same procedures that they use for the
>>>mink studies is what people like Dr, Bloom and Dr. Stevenson recommend.
>>
>> Earlier you wrote:
>>
>>>>However, you can not really compare mink with ferrets. To the
>>>>ranchers, mink have no emotional value. They are kept for their fur.
>>>>And, if several mink get ADV, even if all of the mink must be
>>>>destroyed, they can still be pelted, so they still have some value even
>>>>in death.
>>
>> Care to reconcile those two statements?
>
>The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
>ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
>*model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
>value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
>"product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more thoroughly.
>Think of all the rare diseases humans get. The rarer the disease, the fewer
>people are interested in studying it (or if a med is developed for it, they
>don't get the funding for their manufacture like more common diseases/meds
>get. We've all heard of orphan drugs - drugs that nobody is interested in
>producing, cos they don't think they'll get the Big Bucks from their sale,
>if not many people will be using them).
>
>That's how *I* read it, anyway. Makes sense to me.
There's another sense to it. Mink ranchers threw wads of money at
studies of AD and, of course, vaccine research. They all failed
dismally. In fact, the vaccinated mink and fitch showed a *higher*
morbidity than the control (unvaccinated) group. The vaccines made ADV
spread *faster* among mink.
>> Mink ranchers cared about $$. Ferret owners care about their ferrets.
>> ADV doesn't care about anything.
>>
>> I care about extirpating ADV among pet ferrets,
>
>Rome wasn't built in a day, unfortunately.
Interesting choice of allegories, Lin. Perhaps a subconscious one..?
Rome was built over hundreds of years and *burned* in 3 days, and
that's a pretty good parallel wrt to pet ferrets in North America. It
took ~300 years to establish them here. ADV could wipe them out in 2-3
years should it become epizootic.
I'm going to respond to Danee's post next, and then I figure this
debate has come full circle.
At least it was civil,
swamp
--
"Who me officer? What's a ferut? These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
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| swamp |
On 2 Nov 2005 12:39:07 -0800, "Danee" <DaneeDV@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>lin wrote:
>> "swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
>> > Care to reconcile those two statements?
>>
>> The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
>> ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
>> *model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
>> value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
>> "product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more thoroughly.
>
>Pretty close.
>
>While the disease may have slightly different effects on mink then on
>ferrets, and while it is a different strain of the virus, ADV-F, that
>affects ferrets, the various strains are close enough that procedures
>in handling one are very likely to hold true for the other. There are
>procedures for handling infectious diseases of all types, even if not
>much is know about the disease.
Procedures, but no protocol. The difference: there is no proven way of
preventing the spread of ADV among mink, fitch, or ferrets other than
culling and isolation.
>Unfortunately, while ADV in mink has been studied for quite some time,
>the studies have not been directed toward finding a cure or vaccine.
>And, this is largely because, since there is no emotional attachment,
>it is easier and less costly to cull and pelt the infected animals.
Let's keep things accurate. Several vaccines were developed for mink.
They not only failed, they made things worse.
>Most of the studies on ADV have been done by people like Dr. Marshall
>Bloom. Dr. Bloom is an MD and a virologist. He has been studying ADV
>to learn how viruses that cause auto immune reactions work, so the
>information can be applied to similar diseases that affect humans.
Those would be "lab" animals, and would therefore be kept in a lab
under lab conditions. Labs are usually trustworthy. Joe Schmoe's
shelter is another story.
>Since ferrets are usually kept as companion animals, the idea of
>euthanizing infected animals is less appealing to the owners. Now,
>there is an interest in finding a cure or vaccine.
Again, there has always been that interest. So far, interest hasn't
led to success.
>Again, I understand Swamp's concern.
Addressing my concerns in the 3rd person implies you have no answers
to them. I admire your loyalty to your ADV+ ferrets, but not to the
extent they threaten everyone's ADV- ferrets, which they do.
>Every ferret owner should be
>aware of ADV, how it is spread, and how to avoid it. This is part of
>the education process. But, I still say, I would worry more about the
>ferret that hasn't been tested, and might be positive, then I would the
>ferret that I know is positive. Most owners of ADV+ ferrets know what
>they need to do to protect the ferrets of others. It is the owner that
>doesn't know, or worse, doesn't care, that can pose a problem.
The math is simple:
ADV+ ferrets = problem
ADV +/- ferrets = potential problem
ADV- ferrets = no problem
>When Dr. Bruce Williams spoke at the first Ferret Symposium in Toronto
>in 2000, one of his topics was ADV. At that time he said he expected
>there to be a major ADV epidemic in ferrets in the US within 10 years.
>At this time, I would say, IMHO, his prediction is not going to come
>true. But, I think the only reason it isn't is because of the push to
>educate all ferret owners on the dangers of ADV, and to stress the
>importance of testing every ferret at least twice.
How many ferret shelters know about Doc Williams or ADV? I'm going to
amend your counterprediction of the good doctor Williams: I think he's
probably right. By 2010, aware owners will isolate and aware shelters
will shut their doors to ADV+ ferrets. Those unaware will suffer.
>Now, many people say that because they do not take their ferrets into
>public places, there is no need for them to test, but I disagree. I
>have found that knowing a ferret's ADV status id very important in
>making decisions about their health care. And the reason I say ferrets
>need to be tested twice is because no test is 100% accurate.
>Therefore, the second test is needed to confirm the results of the
>first test.
How does one test the human for ADV on clothing etc? While *you* may
be impeccably careful changing shoes and *ciding, it's a *given* that
someone else won't be.
>I understand why some feel all ADV+ ferrets should be PTS, regardless
>of their condition. But, I feel that those people either don't have
>all the facts...
Tsk tsk... *No one* has all the facts. Not you, me, or Doctors Bloom &
Williams...
>...or don't trust the owners who do have ADV+ ferrets to be
>careful.
Yep.. or one of the volunteers, or one of the vets, or one of the
ferrets, or any number of participants who could make a mistake.
Thousands of things could go wrong, and you're asking us to believe
that none of them will. Tough sell..
>I can also understand the not trusting others. And, that is
>why everyone needs to be diligent in protecting thier own ferrets, not
>just from ADV, but from other diseases as well.
Other diseases can be treated. Presently, ADV can only be contained.
>I am always bothered when I go to a ferret show, and people have their
>ferrets on a leash and are allowing them to walk on the floor. Most
>organizations, like the AFA, require proof of ADV testing, so there is
>less worry about that. But what about ECE and influenza? What about
>parasites like coccidia? These are things that a ferret can have, and
>pass on to others ferrets. And, ferrets on the bare floor are a great
>way to pass them.
None of the viruses/bacteria you mention pose a threat as grave as
ADV.
>By using common sense, though, we can learn ways to protect our
>ferrets. That is what I am trying to advocate. Learn the facts, and
>take precautions. Test, test, TEST!
Learning is always a good idea, but I wouldn't advise the average
ferret owner to test his ferrets unless they have undiagnosed symptoms
which fail to respond to standard treatment(s).
>Now, before I close, I will put in a plug. I would hope that Swamp and
>I can agree that we both agree ADV is dangerous, and that every ferret
>owner needs to learn the facts about it, test their ferrets and take
>precautions against it. We may not agree on the safety of allowing
>ADV+ ferrets to live, even under carefully controlled circumstances,
>but that is OK with me. One last thing I would hope we can agree on is
>the importance of ADV research, and specifically ferret related ADV
>research.
Not *every* ferret owner should test, but we can agree on funding
research.
>The U of GA has been doing research on ADV in ferrets now for several
>years. Their belief is that with some of the newer technologies, a
>vaccine against ADV is possible. However, because the antibodies the
>body naturally forms are non-neutralizing, finding said vaccine will be
>more difficult, and will also be costly. However, with technologies
>like recumbent DNA, it should be possible.
>
>The Carpet Sharks, Ink Yahoo Group is currently running a most
>excellent raffle, and the procedes of the raffle will go to the U of GA
>for ADV research. Therefore, I would urge people to visit the website
>for this, and consider buying some tickets. There are some great
>prizes, and the money will go to a great cause.
> http://midnightbeaujolais.com/raffle/raffle2.htm
>
>And, for those of you who do not buy raffle tickets, but still want to
>contribute to the research, you can make a tax deductible donation
>ddirectly to the ADV Research Fund. Checks and money orders should be
>made out to "The Arch Foundation", and on the notations line indicate
>"for ADV Research". Previously, checks were made out to the University
>Foundation, but this changed recently. Anyone with questions about
>that can view a FAQ at:
> http://www.uga.edu/archfoundation/faq.html
>
>Checks and money orders for the ADV Fund should be sent to the
>following person and address:
> Kate Pennick, Research Tech III
> Dept. of Pathology - Room 148
> UGA College of Vet Med
> Athens, GA 30602-7388
This part we can agree on. I'd like nothing more than a cure, but
would settle for a vaccine. I also agree we've both said our
respective "pieces," and it's time to close.
Your honors, I rest my case,
swamp
--
"Who me officer? What's a ferut? These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
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| lin |
"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
news:mo4jm15cgf486a2j0qqfdci0jd36ek7vpq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 07:43:25 GMT, "lin" <ktnil@KAZMOMX2woh.rr.com>
> wrote:
<snippage>
>>The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
>>ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
>>*model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
>>value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
>>"product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more
>>thoroughly.
>>Think of all the rare diseases humans get. The rarer the disease, the
>>fewer
>>people are interested in studying it (or if a med is developed for it,
>>they
>>don't get the funding for their manufacture like more common diseases/meds
>>get. We've all heard of orphan drugs - drugs that nobody is interested in
>>producing, cos they don't think they'll get the Big Bucks from their sale,
>>if not many people will be using them).
>>
>>That's how *I* read it, anyway. Makes sense to me.
>
> There's another sense to it. Mink ranchers threw wads of money at
> studies of AD and, of course, vaccine research. They all failed
> dismally. In fact, the vaccinated mink and fitch showed a *higher*
> morbidity than the control (unvaccinated) group. The vaccines made ADV
> spread *faster* among mink.
>
>>> Mink ranchers cared about $$. Ferret owners care about their ferrets.
>>> ADV doesn't care about anything.
>>>
>>> I care about extirpating ADV among pet ferrets,
>>
>>Rome wasn't built in a day, unfortunately.
>
> Interesting choice of allegories, Lin. Perhaps a subconscious one..?
> Rome was built over hundreds of years and *burned* in 3 days, and
> that's a pretty good parallel wrt to pet ferrets in North America. It
> took ~300 years to establish them here. ADV could wipe them out in 2-3
> years should it become epizootic.
>
> I'm going to respond to Danee's post next, and then I figure this
> debate has come full circle.
>
> At least it was civil,
My take on all this -
You both make solid points. But one thing everyone has to remember - this is
not a perfect world. All we can do is our best - use our best current
knowledge, use our best judgement, & do more than we think we need to do, in
the face of a disease that still has a lot of unknowns about it.
The whole thing that started this debate (which actually started out as a
diatribe), was about Barb Clay's handling of some ferrets that were rescued,
& were later discovered to be ADV+. Danee thinks that, under the
circumstances, Barb & everyone at Rocky's did all the right things to the
best of their knowledge. Yes, there might have been someone who already
owned ADV+ ferrets who might have been able to adopt them. But she looked to
her usual contacts, & finding no one who was presently able to do so, did
what she had to do to protect the health of the other ferrets already in her
care. Life sucks sometimes, the whole issue tore Barb's heart apart (& still
does), & all she's gotten for her trouble (from certain corners) has been
abuse & fingerpointing. As if she wasn't suffering enough about it all. If
Barb wasn't as concerned & thorough as she is, she could have *very* easily
just not tested, & adopted those babies out to someone, letting the chips
fall where they may, as well as possibly sentencing her existing shelter
population to eventual death. But she didn't. And if she & Fatherfert say
they powerwashed the entire place w/ parvocide, I tend to believe that they
were almost anal about it. I've been to Barb's on several occasions, & you
can't even get w/in *10 ft* of the buildings w/out being sprayed down w/
parvocide, right down to the soles of your shoes. Is that the mark of an
irresponsible person? I think not. And since I suspect Danee knows more
about it than anyone else currently posting in this forum, & she's ok w/ it,
I think none of the rest of us have any place to disagree. Disagree about
the theories of the disease, yes. But about Barb's vigilance in the face of
this situation, I don't think so. I've seen Barb in action, & personally,
I'd trust her implicitly w/ *any* of my animals, *any* day, under *any*
circumstances.
As for my "Rome wasn't built in a day" comment, no, I didn't think about
that end of the remark. Great point, though. *Could* it happen? Yes. Do we
*know* if will happen or not? No. I haven't yet met anyone who could predict
the future, so *I* sure ain't gonna try. I don't have the knowledge to even
make an educated guess about it. I'm still learning. But one thing's for
sure - the more $$ that's pumped into research on this, as w/ any
disease/vaccine, the better chances we have of the worse case scenario *not*
happening. Once medical research gets on the right track, it tends to take
off a lot more quickly. Cripes, just 15 yrs ago, there was no treatment of
any sort to slow down or alter the progression of multiple sclerosis, which
I've had for about 14 yrs now. Now, there are about 6 drugs which are
*highly* successful in doing just that. I have personal friends who were
dx'ed in the few yrs before the first beta-interferon injectable came out -
only about 2 yrs before I was, in one case - who are now completely unable
to feed themselves, & have been unable to do anything for themselves since,
on average, about the 9th or 10th yr after their first noticable symptom.
People like me were lucky enough to get on these new meds not long after
their first symptoms appeared, & quite a higher percentage of us are still
just as active as we were before our first symptom. All in the space in just
a few short yrs.
It *could* be the same w/ research into ADV. Or, if nobody cares enough,
maybe it won't, & the previous predictions could come true. Seems to me, a
great deal of that is up to us. To quote Helen Keller, "alone, we can do so
little - but together, we can accomplish *so much*!" Trite as it sounds,
it's still true. This story doesn't have an ending yet.
I'm glad this part of it was kept civil, too. One learns so much more.
--
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
To email me back, take out everything from "K" to "2"
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| Danee |
swamp wrote:
>
> Learning is always a good idea, but I wouldn't advise the average
> ferret owner to test his ferrets unless they have undiagnosed symptoms
> which fail to respond to standard treatment(s).
>
>
> Not *every* ferret owner should test, but we can agree on funding
> research.
>
Here is something we disagree on, and something I am surprised we
disagree on. Testing is the most important part of identifying
infected ferrets.
Many ADV positive ferrets show no symptoms. During a regular physical
exam, even one that includes bloodwork, ADV will go undetected, unless
an ADV test is performed.
Now, you mentioned that you live in CA, so I realize you probably do
not attend many ferret related functions. But, in much of the rest of
the country, there are ferret clubs, ferret frolicks and ferret shows,
all of which mean ferrets are brought together at an event. If even
one of those ferrets has not been tested, and has ADV and is shedding
it, any ferret at the event may be exposed to the virus.
And, if you amend your statement to say that only ferrets with symptoms
and ferrets that attend public functions need testing, then consider
this.
Almost every ferret owner - at least every good ferret owner - takes
their ferrets to a vet occasionally. Many is the time I have been in
my vet's waiting area, and I have see other people handling each others
ferrets. What if one of those ferrets has not been tested and has ADV?
Most ADV+ ferrets do not display any ADV symptoms until they are near
death, or under extreme stress. But, even while they are symptom free,
they can have ADV virus in their bodily fluids. So, to stop the spread
of ADV, it is necessary to test all ferrets.
Finally, while I am not aware of every ferret shelter out there, I do
know that many of them are now aware of ADV, test the ferrets in their
shelter, and also require incoming ferrets be tested before they are
accepted. Further, many require that people adopting from the shelter
prove that any ferrets the adopter already has have been tested and are
ADV-. I agree, though, that all shelters need to learn about ADV, and
to test. If Barb Clay hadn't required testing, the ferrets from the
Abington Rescue would have been in themain shelter and not the Love
Shack.
In any event, I think we have pretty much brought this discussion to a
conclusion. I hope that people who have been reading this thread have
learned something, or at least been given some things to think about.
Take care, everyone, and learn all you can about ADV.
--
Danee
International Ferret Congress Health Issues Coordinator
http://www.ferretcongress.org
ADV - If your ferret hasn't been tested, you don't know!
For more information visit: http://www.ferretadv.com
You can help fight ADV!
Visit: http://help4adv.terrabox.com/
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| lin |
"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
news:7klgm1duv89cg0b8rvo2j711g6i35076m3@4ax.com...
> On 31 Oct 2005 10:02:14 -0800, "Danee" <DaneeDV@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>While ADV in ferrets has not been studied nearly as much as is needed,
>>ADV in mink has been. Using the same procedures that they use for the
>>mink studies is what people like Dr, Bloom and Dr. Stevenson recommend.
>
> Earlier you wrote:
>
>>>However, you can not really compare mink with ferrets. To the
>>>ranchers, mink have no emotional value. They are kept for their fur.
>>>And, if several mink get ADV, even if all of the mink must be
>>>destroyed, they can still be pelted, so they still have some value even
>>>in death.
>
> Care to reconcile those two statements?
The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
*model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
"product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more thoroughly.
Think of all the rare diseases humans get. The rarer the disease, the fewer
people are interested in studying it (or if a med is developed for it, they
don't get the funding for their manufacture like more common diseases/meds
get. We've all heard of orphan drugs - drugs that nobody is interested in
producing, cos they don't think they'll get the Big Bucks from their sale,
if not many people will be using them).
That's how *I* read it, anyway. Makes sense to me.
> Mink ranchers cared about $$. Ferret owners care about their ferrets.
> ADV doesn't care about anything.
>
> I care about extirpating ADV among pet ferrets,
Rome wasn't built in a day, unfortunately.
--
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
To email me back, take out everything from "K" to "2"
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| Danee |
lin wrote:
> "swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
> > Care to reconcile those two statements?
>
> The way I interpret it is, while they haven't been able to study ADV in
> ferrets much yet, they recommend using the existing mink studies as a
> *model* for studying it in ferrets. While mink don't have the *emotional*
> value as a pet will, mink might have a greater monitary value as a
> "product", so any diseases they might get would be studied more thoroughly.
Pretty close.
While the disease may have slightly different effects on mink then on
ferrets, and while it is a different strain of the virus, ADV-F, that
affects ferrets, the various strains are close enough that procedures
in handling one are very likely to hold true for the other. There are
procedures for handling infectious diseases of all types, even if not
much is know about the disease.
Unfortunately, while ADV in mink has been studied for quite some time,
the studies have not been directed toward finding a cure or vaccine.
And, this is largely because, since there is no emotional attachment,
it is easier and less costly to cull and pelt the infected animals.
Most of the studies on ADV have been done by people like Dr. Marshall
Bloom. Dr. Bloom is an MD and a virologist. He has been studying ADV
to learn how viruses that cause auto immune reactions work, so the
information can be applied to similar diseases that affect humans.
Since ferrets are usually kept as companion animals, the idea of
euthanizing infected animals is less appealing to the owners. Now,
there is an interest in finding a cure or vaccine.
Again, I understand Swamp's concern. Every ferret owner should be
aware of ADV, how it is spread, and how to avoid it. This is part of
the education process. But, I still say, I would worry more about the
ferret that hasn't been tested, and might be positive, then I would the
ferret that I know is positive. Most owners of ADV+ ferrets know what
they need to do to protect the ferrets of others. It is the owner that
doesn't know, or worse, doesn't care, that can pose a problem.
When Dr. Bruce Williams spoke at the first Ferret Symposium in Toronto
in 2000, one of his topics was ADV. At that time he said he expected
there to be a major ADV epidemic in ferrets in the US within 10 years.
At this time, I would say, IMHO, his prediction is not going to come
true. But, I think the only reason it isn't is because of the push to
educate all ferret owners on the dangers of ADV, and to stress the
importance of testing every ferret at least twice.
Now, many people say that because they do not take their ferrets into
public places, there is no need for them to test, but I disagree. I
have found that knowing a ferret's ADV status id very important in
making decisions about their health care. And the reason I say ferrets
need to be tested twice is because no test is 100% accurate.
Therefore, the second test is needed to confirm the results of the
first test.
I understand why some feel all ADV+ ferrets should be PTS, regardless
of their condition. But, I feel that those people either don't have
all the facts, or don't trust the owners who do have ADV+ ferrets to be
careful. I can also understand the not trusting others. And, that is
why everyone needs to be diligent in protecting thier own ferrets, not
just from ADV, but from other diseases as well.
I am always bothered when I go to a ferret show, and people have their
ferrets on a leash and are allowing them to walk on the floor. Most
organizations, like the AFA, require proof of ADV testing, so there is
less worry about that. But what about ECE and influenza? What about
parasites like coccidia? These are things that a ferret can have, and
pass on to others ferrets. And, ferrets on the bare floor are a great
way to pass them.
By using common sense, though, we can learn ways to protect our
ferrets. That is what I am trying to advocate. Learn the facts, and
take precautions. Test, test, TEST!
Now, before I close, I will put in a plug. I would hope that Swamp and
I can agree that we both agree ADV is dangerous, and that every ferret
owner needs to learn the facts about it, test their ferrets and take
precautions against it. We may not agree on the safety of allowing
ADV+ ferrets to live, even under carefully controlled circumstances,
but that is OK with me. One last thing I would hope we can agree on is
the importance of ADV research, and specifically ferret related ADV
research.
The U of GA has been doing research on ADV in ferrets now for several
years. Their belief is that with some of the newer technologies, a
vaccine against ADV is possible. However, because the antibodies the
body naturally forms are non-neutralizing, finding said vaccine will be
more difficult, and will also be costly. However, with technologies
like recumbent DNA, it should be possible.
The Carpet Sharks, Ink Yahoo Group is currently running a most
excellent raffle, and the procedes of the raffle will go to the U of GA
for ADV research. Therefore, I would urge people to visit the website
for this, and consider buying some tickets. There are some great
prizes, and the money will go to a great cause.
http://midnightbeaujolais.com/raffle/raffle2.htm
And, for those of you who do not buy raffle tickets, but still want to
contribute to the research, you can make a tax deductible donation
ddirectly to the ADV Research Fund. Checks and money orders should be
made out to "The Arch Foundation", and on the notations line indicate
"for ADV Research". Previously, checks were made out to the University
Foundation, but this changed recently. Anyone with questions about
that can view a FAQ at:
http://www.uga.edu/archfoundation/faq.html
Checks and money orders for the ADV Fund should be sent to the
following person and address:
Kate Pennick, Research Tech III
Dept. of Pathology - Room 148
UGA College of Vet Med
Athens, GA 30602-7388
--
Danee
International Ferret Congress Health Issues Coordinator
http://www.ferretcongress.org
ADV - If your ferret hasn't been tested, you don't know!
For more information visit: http://www.ferretadv.com
You can help fight ADV!
Visit: http://help4adv.terrabox.com/
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