| Cruel? (was: Re: My budgies won't stop biting me!) - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page |
| Jim Leonard |
"Just Molly" <oldmollyREMOVETHIS@tesco.net> wrote in message news:<Z69Gc.110$Mq3.43@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>...
> Ahh you are a troll. Why didn't you say so right at the start?
Well, it didn't start out that way. If you want to point the
netiquette finger, point it at the person who posts a single line of
reply after quoting 30 lines unnecessarily (ie. yourself).
However, I would have liked a serious discussion on my last paragraph,
because it got me thinking: While we can never debate *why* people
like to keep birds as pets -- because that is matter of taste and
everyone's taste is different -- a strong argument can be made that
keeping birds as pets is cruel. Pets kept in a cage are bad enough,
but it is common practice to keep birds' wings clipped to *ensure*
they cannot escape. I can't think of any other pet category along
these lines; it's like binding the legs of a dog together when it's
already on a tether in the yard. Comments? (I'm not trolling, I'm
being serious. I would like the opinion of long-time bird owners on
this topic.)
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| Cookie |
> However, I would have liked a serious discussion on my last paragraph,
> because it got me thinking: While we can never debate *why* people
> like to keep birds as pets -- because that is matter of taste and
> everyone's taste is different -- a strong argument can be made that
> keeping birds as pets is cruel.
Keeping a social bird in a 1'x1' cage and keeping them in the farthest
corner of the house and not socializing with it is very very cruel.
Any bird that is kept that way will exhibit signs of stress,
depression, etc. However, keeping a social bird in the largest cage
affordable while providing a play stand and lots of physical attention
is not. One can easily tell that the latter bird is very happy because
it will exhibit happy bird signals (i.e. playing, screaming
"its-so-wonderful-to-be-a-bird" all day, destroying everything in its
path, etc.) My sun conure is the happiest bird in the world IHMO. He
loves to nap on my shoulder while watch TV together, he has his own
spot on the dinner table, he has a large large play stand a large
cage, and plenty of stimulating toys.
> Pets kept in a cage are bad enough,
> but it is common practice to keep birds' wings clipped to *ensure*
> they cannot escape.
Yes that is why bird's wings are clipped! Name one loving pet owner
that would want his/her bird to fly outside and be subjected to dogs,
cats, other birds, while trying to survive. Name one loving pet owner
that would want their fully flighted bird to fly into a pot of boiling
water on the stove. Name one loving pet owner that would want their
fully flighted bird to fly into candles, land in a fish tank, land on
the floor and get eated by the cat. Name one loving pet owner that
would want to witness a fully flighted bird crashing full force into a
window and breaking its neck. My bird's wings are clipped so that he
can ever so safely glide to the ground if he falls, but not take
flight. Sorry, but I am a strong advocate of clipping a bird's wings.
>I can't think of any other pet category along
> these lines; it's like binding the legs of a dog together when it's
> already on a tether in the yard. Comments? (I'm not trolling, I'm
> being serious. I would like the opinion of long-time bird owners on
> this topic.)
What do you think of electric fences to fence in horses and cows? What
do you think of horses being hobbled? What do you think of people bull
riding? What do you think of branding cattle? What do you think of
dogs being kept in 10'x10' kennels all day barking for attention? What
do you think of cats that are declawed (claws never grow back as
flight feathers do, clipping a bird's wings hurts as much as it does
when you get a hair cut.) What do you think of people tearing down the
rain forest killing many many parrots and other animals in the
process? What do you think of cutting cow's tails off (yes they do it
on dairy farms all across America) so it is easier to milk them? What
do you think of keeping horses, cows, etc, in small stuffy stalls
while being attacked by flies? What do you think of forcing a crying
child to sit in a child seat being strapped in? (for safety of
course!!!!!) The list goes on and on. I would rather be a bird having
fun in a cage then being anything above. My god, can't you see why
people clip bird's wings??????
People nail metal shoes on horses to keep their hooves safe from
splitting open. People also clip a parrot's wing to keep their birds
from flying into the toilet and drowning or flying into a window and
breaking their neck.
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| Toucanldy |
>From: smiling_angel48@yahoo.com (Cookie)
I would rather be a bird having
>fun in a cage then being anything above. My god, can't you see why
>people clip bird's wings??????
Then there's the other side of the coin.
"The Fitness Factor of Flight"
The one area in which all health experts agree is the need for exercise.
http://www.holisticbirds.com/hbn04/...tnessflight.htm
Regards
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| Me1 |
Cookie wrote:
>>>
> People nail metal shoes on horses to keep their hooves safe from
> splitting open. People also clip a parrot's wing to keep their birds
> from flying into the toilet and drowning or flying into a window and
> breaking their neck.
>
Why would anyone allow their bird access to a toilet? Cant you put the lid
down?
Cant you put drapes over your windows? Cant you make your house bird safe?
Too many poor excuses for clipping.
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| Just Molly |
"Cookie" <smiling_angel48@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:87779a9e.0407060554.7a380e65@posting.google.com...
> Yes that is why bird's wings are clipped! Name one loving pet owner
> that would want his/her bird to fly outside and be subjected to dogs,
> cats, other birds, while trying to survive. Name one loving pet owner
> that would want their fully flighted bird to fly into a pot of boiling
> water on the stove. Name one loving pet owner that would want their
> fully flighted bird to fly into candles, land in a fish tank, land on
> the floor and get eated by the cat. Name one loving pet owner that
> would want to witness a fully flighted bird crashing full force into a
> window and breaking its neck.
Me. I do not allow access to my kitchen ever especially not when I'm
cooking, my windows and doors are either closed or have netting over them
when the birds are out so they don't fly out, I don't have candles as I have
electricity here, I don't have a fish tank and if I did, it would have a
lid, I do not allow my cats into the room with my birds when they are out
of the cages, not one of my fully flightred birds has ever flown into the
window because I have muslin drapes on them.
> My bird's wings are clipped so that he
> can ever so safely glide to the ground if he falls, but not take
> flight. Sorry, but I am a strong advocate of clipping a bird's wings.
HAve you had experience of kepping fully flighted birds?
> >I can't think of any other pet category along
> > these lines; it's like binding the legs of a dog together when it's
> > already on a tether in the yard. Comments? (I'm not trolling, I'm
> > being serious. I would like the opinion of long-time bird owners on
> > this topic.)
>
> What do you think of electric fences to fence in horses and cows?
How are these cruel? How do these stop natural abilities?
>What
> do you think of horses being hobbled?
Illegal in my country,
<snipped rest of rather boring and irrelevant stuff>
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| Dave Bugg |
Jim Leonard wrote:
> ...Comments? (I'm not trolling, I'm
> being serious. I would like the opinion of long-time bird owners on
> this topic.)
Here's my comment: Your post is a total waste of time UNLESS 1. you do not
have a specific agenda; and 2. you are honestly trying to have your mind
changed about your inflammatory thesis.
This is a ng for pet enthusiasts, not a philosophical ng debating the
supposed moral/ethical issues of keeping pet birds. It's as if you have
crept into rec.protestants.baptists and are "seriously" wanting comment on
the cruelty of adult baptism. Yes, you are a troll, and I do not have to
justify to you why keeping my birds -- caged, clipped, or on my shoulder
24/7 -- isn't cruel. There are plenty of other NGs that fit your agenda.
PLONK.
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| Just Molly |
"Cookie" <smiling_angel48@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:87779a9e.0407071159.5372a16d@posting.google.com...
> > Me. I do not allow access to my kitchen ever especially not when I'm
> > cooking, my windows and doors are either closed or have netting over
them
> > when the birds are out so they don't fly out, I don't have candles as I
have
> > electricity here, I don't have a fish tank and if I did, it would have a
> > lid, I do not allow my cats into the room with my birds when they are
out
> > of the cages, not one of my fully flightred birds has ever flown into
the
> > window because I have muslin drapes on them.
>
> That is good that you have such a perfect house. My house, on the
> other hand, may not have a kitchen that is in a room enclosed with
> doors (i.e. able to completely close off).
not very good from a fire safety aspcet and boy must you end up with
cooking smells all over your furniture and airborne grease all up your walls
and ceiling. yuck.
>Have you ever heard of
> burning candles for decoration?
I have indeed, but it isn't something that most careful pet owners would
do. Too many risks involved.
>
> > > My bird's wings are clipped so that he
> > > can ever so safely glide to the ground if he falls, but not take
> > > flight. Sorry, but I am a strong advocate of clipping a bird's wings.
> >
> > HAve you had experience of kepping fully flighted birds?
>
> Yes actually. A while back, I had four parakeets that I never clipped
> their wings. They had fun flying and everything, but since our house
> doesn't have a kitchen that you can completely close off and since we
> have three other people in the house, it is hard to keep the toilet
> lid always closed 24/7.
Don't tell me your toilet doesn't have a door either so on top of cooking
smells you get toilet smells in your living space too? Double yuck.
> > >What
> > > do you think of horses being hobbled?
> > Illegal in my country,
>
> What country do you live in?
Take a look at my headers. U.K.
> > <snipped rest of rather boring and irrelevant stuff>
>
> Rephrase that: "snipped rest of rather useful information that makes
> my (Cookie's) argument very ture." Since your argument doesn't hold
> water, you perfer to ignore the rest I had to say.
Not at all, it was simply that your so called excuses were boring, long
wonded and totally irellevant.
>
> Twice in the last year, there were two ads in the paper offering a
> reward for anyone to bring back their birds (one was a macaw, one was
> a young african gray) that flew away. Don't you think those loving pet
> owners used every possible precaution?
Obviously not because their birds flew away.
>Accidents do happen, and one
> can furthur prevent them from happening if one clips their bird's
> wings.
But clipped birds can and do get trodden on, walk out of doors, and are
then unable to escape from predators, get closed in doors, get sat on, climb
up things into dangerous situations.
What do you have to say about that? If your bird climbed onto the stove
when it was on, the poor sod wouldn't even be able to fly off immediately it
would have to try to run and in its panic would be badly burned. Cruel.
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| Cookie |
> > That is good that you have such a perfect house. My house, on the
> > other hand, may not have a kitchen that is in a room enclosed with
> > doors (i.e. able to completely close off).
>
> not very good from a fire safety aspcet and boy must you end up with
> cooking smells all over your furniture and airborne grease all up your walls
> and ceiling. yuck.
This may suprise you, but no, I don't have any of that. My kitchen is
SEPARATE from everything but not enclosed like a closet.
> > > HAve you had experience of kepping fully flighted birds?
> >
> > Yes actually. A while back, I had four parakeets that I never clipped
> > their wings. They had fun flying and everything, but since our house
> > doesn't have a kitchen that you can completely close off and since we
> > have three other people in the house, it is hard to keep the toilet
> > lid always closed 24/7.
> Don't tell me your toilet doesn't have a door either so on top of cooking
> smells you get toilet smells in your living space too? Double yuck.
Oooo. Sorry to disappoint you, but my bathroom has a door. At least I
don't go in an outhouse like you do.
> > Rephrase that: "snipped rest of rather useful information that makes
> > my (Cookie's) argument very ture." Since your argument doesn't hold
> > water, you perfer to ignore the rest I had to say.
> Not at all, it was simply that your so called excuses were boring, long
> wonded and totally irellevant.
Irrevellant to YOU. Not to me and everyone else. You must be VERY VERY
VERY self centered. Guess what, the world doesn't revolve around you.
> >Accidents do happen, and one
> > can furthur prevent them from happening if one clips their bird's
> > wings.
> But clipped birds can and do get trodden on,
no if supervised. Why would you leave the house with them loose?
walk out of doors,
Umm, birds can't open doors.
get sat on,
Do you watch where you sit? I sure do.
> What do you have to say about that? If your bird climbed onto the stove
> when it was on, the poor sod wouldn't even be able to fly off immediately it
> would have to try to run and in its panic would be badly burned. Cruel.
No. First of all, I don't have a rope hanging from the top of my stove
to the floor so the bird can climb up. My stove isn't climbable unless
you have suction cup feet. How can a clipped bird get on top of a
stove? It can't fly up, it can't "climb" up, and lastly, it wouldn't
be in the kitchen without me there.
You have serious issues regarding logic, simple fundamental thought,
and mostly, bad excuses for defending your argument. I don't mind
arguing with someone who is intelligent and presents very logical
premises to back up arguments. Your arguments about bathrooms not
having doors, birds simply walking out side, etc, stink.
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| Jim Leonard |
smiling_angel48@yahoo.com (Cookie) wrote in message news:<87779a9e.0407060554.7a380e65@posting.google.com>...
> Keeping a social bird in a 1'x1' cage and keeping them in the farthest
> corner of the house and not socializing with it is very very cruel.
> Any bird that is kept that way will exhibit signs of stress,
> depression, etc. However, keeping a social bird in the largest cage
> affordable while providing a play stand and lots of physical attention
> is not. One can easily tell that the latter bird is very happy because
> it will exhibit happy bird signals (i.e. playing, screaming
> "its-so-wonderful-to-be-a-bird" all day, destroying everything in its
> path, etc.) My sun conure is the happiest bird in the world IHMO. He
> loves to nap on my shoulder while watch TV together, he has his own
> spot on the dinner table, he has a large large play stand a large
> cage, and plenty of stimulating toys.
Thank you for your reply; this does indeed prove that owning pet birds
does not have to be cruel to the animal. It sounds like you and your
pets have a great relationship.
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| Jim Leonard |
"Dave Bugg" <deebuggatcharterdotnet> wrote in message news:<10elsfsrv7o9229@corp.supernews.com>...
> This is a ng for pet enthusiasts, not a philosophical ng debating the
> supposed moral/ethical issues of keeping pet birds.
I'm sorry, I thought that newsgroups were forums for discussion.
> It's as if you have
> crept into rec.protestants.baptists and are "seriously" wanting comment on
> the cruelty of adult baptism.
And that would be wrong? I think a better example is something like
going into rec.pets.birds and wanting comments on how to cook parrots
for the best possible flavor. THAT would be a troll, no doubt. But I
was asking a serious philosophical question, and if you weren't paying
attention, you'd see I got a serious, intelligent answer.
> Yes, you are a troll, and I do not have to
> justify to you why keeping my birds -- caged, clipped, or on my shoulder
> 24/7 -- isn't cruel.
Then don't reply, just delete the message. And if it offended you,
just add me to your killfile. Sheesh. Nobody's forcing you to reply,
you know.
> PLONK.
Oh, get off your high horse, for god's sake. I thought this kind of
attitude went out of style years ago.
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| Just Molly |
"Cookie" <smiling_angel48@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:87779a9e.0407080959.2f3cf646@posting.google.com...
> > > That is good that you have such a perfect house. My house, on the
> > > other hand, may not have a kitchen that is in a room enclosed with
> > > doors (i.e. able to completely close off).
> >
> > not very good from a fire safety aspcet and boy must you end up with
> > cooking smells all over your furniture and airborne grease all up your
walls
> > and ceiling. yuck.
>
> This may suprise you, but no, I don't have any of that. My kitchen is
> SEPARATE from everything but not enclosed like a closet.
>
>
> > > > HAve you had experience of kepping fully flighted birds?
> > >
> > > Yes actually. A while back, I had four parakeets that I never clipped
> > > their wings. They had fun flying and everything, but since our house
> > > doesn't have a kitchen that you can completely close off and since we
> > > have three other people in the house, it is hard to keep the toilet
> > > lid always closed 24/7.
> > Don't tell me your toilet doesn't have a door either so on top of
cooking
> > smells you get toilet smells in your living space too? Double yuck.
>
> Oooo. Sorry to disappoint you, but my bathroom has a door. At least I
> don't go in an outhouse like you do.
So how would a flighted bird be able to fly down the toilet?
> > > Rephrase that: "snipped rest of rather useful information that makes
> > > my (Cookie's) argument very ture." Since your argument doesn't hold
> > > water, you perfer to ignore the rest I had to say.
> > Not at all, it was simply that your so called excuses were boring, long
> > wonded and totally irellevant.
>
> Irrevellant to YOU. Not to me and everyone else. You must be VERY VERY
> VERY self centered. Guess what, the world doesn't revolve around you.
Mine does.
> > >Accidents do happen, and one
> > > can furthur prevent them from happening if one clips their bird's
> > > wings.
> > But clipped birds can and do get trodden on,
>
> no if supervised. Why would you leave the house with them loose?
>
> walk out of doors,
>
> Umm, birds can't open doors.
>
> get sat on,
>
> Do you watch where you sit? I sure do.
I don't normally check behind cushions when I sit down. Bird HAVE been sat
on.
>
> You have serious issues regarding logic, simple fundamental thought,
> and mostly, bad excuses for defending your argument.
Ahem, pot kettle black
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| Dave Bugg |
Jim Leonard wrote:
> I'm sorry, I thought that newsgroups were forums for discussion.
Sure, of like minded individuals sharing common interests. Or for newbies
hoping to gather information. Trolls tend to be antagonists. There are
plenty of discussion NGs that can meet your needs.
> And that would be wrong?
Not to a troll. But for an individual of normal intelligence, playing the
role of antagonist amongst like minded folks is a bit strange.
> I think a better example is something like
> going into rec.pets.birds and wanting comments on how to cook parrots
> for the best possible flavor. THAT would be a troll, no doubt. But I
> was asking a serious philosophical question, and if you weren't paying
> attention, you'd see I got a serious, intelligent answer.
I was paying plenty of attention. But the fact that you pose an antagonistic
thesis, to which you receive a response, is not a justification of your
antagonistic trollish behavior.
> Then don't reply, just delete the message. And if it offended you,
> just add me to your killfile. Sheesh. Nobody's forcing you to reply,
> you know.
Which is why I decided not to kill-file you after all. The "just don't
reply" thing is sooo lame. When you post in a public arena, you don't have
any ability to dictate the tone of replies. You are disingenuous,
antagonistic and are here simply to create controversy. Hmmmm, that sounds
like a troll to me.
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| Peter Hucker |
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:48:14 GMT, Just Molly <oldmollyREMOVETHIS@tesco.net> wrote:
>> > > > HAve you had experience of kepping fully flighted birds?
>> > >
>> > > Yes actually. A while back, I had four parakeets that I never clipped
>> > > their wings. They had fun flying and everything, but since our house
>> > > doesn't have a kitchen that you can completely close off and since we
>> > > have three other people in the house, it is hard to keep the toilet
>> > > lid always closed 24/7.
>> > Don't tell me your toilet doesn't have a door either so on top of
> cooking
>> > smells you get toilet smells in your living space too? Double yuck.
>>
>> Oooo. Sorry to disappoint you, but my bathroom has a door. At least I
>> don't go in an outhouse like you do.
> So how would a flighted bird be able to fly down the toilet?
By forgetting the door.
>> > > Rephrase that: "snipped rest of rather useful information that makes
>> > > my (Cookie's) argument very ture." Since your argument doesn't hold
>> > > water, you perfer to ignore the rest I had to say.
>> > Not at all, it was simply that your so called excuses were boring, long
>> > wonded and totally irellevant.
>>
>> Irrevellant to YOU. Not to me and everyone else. You must be VERY VERY
>> VERY self centered. Guess what, the world doesn't revolve around you.
>
> Mine does.
We noticed.
>> > >Accidents do happen, and one
>> > > can furthur prevent them from happening if one clips their bird's
>> > > wings.
>> > But clipped birds can and do get trodden on,
>>
>> no if supervised. Why would you leave the house with them loose?
>>
>> walk out of doors,
>>
>> Umm, birds can't open doors.
>>
>> get sat on,
>>
>> Do you watch where you sit? I sure do.
> I don't normally check behind cushions when I sit down. Bird HAVE been sat
> on.
Your bum is too big.
--
FOURTEEN - CHECK OUT THE BABY! parrots and rising http://www.petersparrots.com
93 silly video clips http://www.insanevideoclips.com
1259 digital photos http://www.petersphotos.com
Served from a pentawatercooled dual 2.8GHz silent Athlon with half TB RAID.
Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two other sides gently compressed by a Thigh Master.
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| Cookie |
> Mine does.
>
At least you finally admitted that you're a self centered troll.
> > Do you watch where you sit? I sure do.
> I don't normally check behind cushions when I sit down. Bird HAVE been sat
> on.
But wouldn't you notice a bright orange sun conure sitting on your
sofa when you approach it to sit down? Unlike you, I usually walk up
to my sofa FACING it and then turn around to sit down. Do you walk
across the room backwards to sit down?
> >
> > You have serious issues regarding logic, simple fundamental thought,
> > and mostly, bad excuses for defending your argument.
> Ahem, pot kettle black
Some kettles *are* dark blue. In the 21st century, not all pots are
black however most are. As to what the saying means, I am logical.
You, from reading your responses are not. (Saying a bird can simply
"walk up" the side of a stove.) When I asked you what you thought of
horses being hobbled, you ignored my question and simply said that it
is illegal in your country. Fine, but I was asking you what you
THOUGHT of them being hobbled, I was NOT asking you what your laws are
there. So, again, what DO you think of horses being hobbled?
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