| Marshall's ferrets. - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page |
| Jim Williams |
>Yea, marshalls sucks
This was a comment from a recent post I read on the board here.
On the comment above, I was just curious....I hear a lot of condemnation of
Marshall's. That is where our Gwen came from and where our four current
adoptees came from. Gwen was a great ferret, with a wonderful disposition and
personality, and our four current fuzzies have the same traits. I do notice
that Marshall's ferrets seem to be somewhat smallish, but all four of these
seem healthy, happy, and active for the most part.
Does anyone have a link to solid evidence that Marshall's ferrets are in fact
inferior to other breeders, or could it just be that they sell so many that you
naturally hear of more of the problems? I would really like to know this for
future reference. As to our four current fuzzies, they needed a home and we
just couldn't turn them down, regardless.
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I agree with you, Jim. Over the years I've heard so many bad things about
Marshalls. However, of the five ferrets I've had over the years, the
Marshalls ferrets I've had were the most personable, friendliest, smartest
and most loveable of the ferrets I've owned - hands down.
Also, my personal experience with Gilbert (my most recent Marshalls ferret
that i just got a few months ago from a Petco) turned out to show me a
little bit FIRST HAND about Marshalls and how they handle problems. I think
people need to know how Marshalls handles a problem, so I'm sharing this
story that happened over the past two months:
The day I bought Gilbert, the checkout girl at Petco said she didn't know
where the paperwork was for the ferrets, took my address and said they would
mail it to me. They did not. Even after repeated calls to the store, they
did not (it was a 4 hour drive from my home, otherwise I would have just
driven over there and gotten results, no doubt). I kept getting promises,
but no paperwork.
In the meantime, we discovered that Gilbert came to me with ECE - and I
didn't know it when I brought him home because his poops looked fine. I had
him checked out at the vet, stool tests, etc, before I put him in with Kylie
(I needed to be able to put a kit in with her because of her temperament she
would not accept an adult ferret, so we just got a full & complete vet
check, then let them share the cage and play together - usually not a good
idea, but this was an exception for good reasons). Days later, Kylie
became sick and had green slimy diarrhea. Then Gilbert came down with it.
The vet said that it was ECE brought in by the new kit. Both ferrets were
very very sick for weeks. I incurred a total of $857.00 in vet bills. I
made a trip back to the Petco where Gilbert was purchased and talked with
the manager there, who advised me that ALL ferrets have ECE, even tho
various strains, so probably Gilbert had a different strain than Kylie had
ever been exposed to, so that's why she got so sick (duh.......I KNOW better
than that, but he stood there and lied straight to my face with all the
authority in the world (ha ha), then walked away, stating they had no
responsibility). His attitude is what put me over the top and made me take
action. His ignorance scared me for future ferrets passing thru his store.
Now that the ferrets have pretty well stabilized (Kylie is still showing
symptoms off and on and it has reallly taken a toll on her overall health),
about 10 days ago I went to both the Petco corporate site and also the
Marshall's online site and used their "contact us" link to send both of them
emails to tell them what had happened. I wanted #1:the enclosure where I
purchased Gilbert made safe for future ferrets (ECE is incredibly contagious
and for a long time, so future kits passing thru that enclosure were in
danger of getting ECE); #2: I wanted paperwork for Gilbert, and #3: I
wanted to let them know how much this had cost me. I wrote that letter at
about 11pm one evening.
First thing the next morning when I checked my email, I found email from
both Petco and Marshalls. The Petco email said that the manager of the
store where Gilbert was purchased would be contacting me......my telephone
rang about 10 minutes after I read their email and I was advised that Petco
would reimburse me ALL the medical bills incurred as a result of purchasing
Gilbert - yes, even Kylie's vet bills! I was to fax the bills to them that
day and a check would be mailed to me immediately (that's a LOT of money!!).
The Marshall's email simply had the name of a Marshalls representative and
an 800 phone number, said they were very concerned about my report and
simply asked that I contact her immediately. When I called her, she was
very familiar with the case, recognized my name right away, was very very
concerned about the ECE report I had written. She wanted details galore
about the store and what I was told when I talked to the manager about ECE
with conerns for the remaining ferrets in the cage, etc. She assured me
that 'we are VERY aware of ECE and we understand the severity of this
situation and it WILL be dealt with immediately' and the store will be
educated on ECE for the safety of future ferrets and their owners and they
will make changes or they won't receive anymore Marshalls ferrets. Then she
wanted information for Gilbert's name, color, etc, so she could send me a
birth certificate for him AND went on to begin asking (on her own) about the
vet bills that had been incurred. When I told her that Petco had already
promised to reimburse me for them, she said that if I ran into any problems
whatsoever with getting that money refunded, that I was to call her back and
let her know and that the vet bills WILL be reimbursed, one way or another
(either from Petco OR from Marshalls); that Marshall's stands behind their
ferrets and furthermore they were very grateful that Gilbert had found a
home that had gotten him, and Kylie, the vet care that was needed when they
were sick, and she was glad they were both okay now. Mind you, this is with
me having absolutely NOTHING to prove Gilbert was even a Marshalls ferret
except a receipt from Petco.
So, in all I've heard about Marshalls in the past, I can only share my
personal experience with them in the worst of situations and the way they
handled it - I was incredibly impressed. Funny thing.......just now while I
was writing this, hubby brought in the mail and Gilbert's birth certificate
was in it! :-)) He's now 'legitimate' :-) I understand all the push for
adopting from shelters, for not supporting the big breeders, and I'm sure
they all have some merit to them and I understand the passion behind the
opinions. However, I must say that my personal experience with both
Marshalls as a company AND the ferrets themselves, I must say 'thumbs up' to
Marshalls (and I know that's not a particularly popular opinion, so save the
flames for someone who can be swayed - it's a waste of time to try to sway
my opinion). Gilbert couldn't be a sweeter, more cuddly, smarter ferret if
I had designed him personally and had him custom-built! We're all entitled
to our opinions........and that's mine.
jacquie, kyllie & gilbert
"Jim Williams" <jimw1956@cs.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040625131716.19087.00000567@mb-m06.news.cs.com...
> >Yea, marshalls sucks
>
> This was a comment from a recent post I read on the board here.
>
> On the comment above, I was just curious....I hear a lot of condemnation
of
> Marshall's. That is where our Gwen came from and where our four current
> adoptees came from. Gwen was a great ferret, with a wonderful disposition
and
> personality, and our four current fuzzies have the same traits. I do
notice
> that Marshall's ferrets seem to be somewhat smallish, but all four of
these
> seem healthy, happy, and active for the most part.
>
> Does anyone have a link to solid evidence that Marshall's ferrets are in
fact
> inferior to other breeders, or could it just be that they sell so many
that you
> naturally hear of more of the problems? I would really like to know this
for
> future reference. As to our four current fuzzies, they needed a home and
we
> just couldn't turn them down, regardless.
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| Pam |
Oh yeah, I do have one breeder ferret, Buffy. She's no bigger then
Marshalls and she was a late spay and is not descented.
But, she is more of a biter (I mean BITER) then the others. I'm just
careful around Buffy when I handle her. You must look right at her and
let her climb onto your lap.
Pam
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| Pam |
That's great with Marshalls! A lot of people don't like them, due to
the fact they do breed ferrets for experimentation. BUT, on another
note, they also hire school kids to play with their ferrets (ones for
pets) to get them socialized. Another reason is the spaying and
neutering too early.
I have Marshalls, Triple F, and Path Valley ferrets. I will say, hands
down...Marshalls ferrets were more socialized then the others. Triple
F, for some reason (non socialized) has a lot of biters, which takes a
lot of work!! Path Valley ferrets, to me, are much smaller then
Marshalls. On another note, Phoebe 10.4 years and her brother Zoey,
both are Triple F ferrets.
Pam & the 20 maniacs
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| Princebilly1 |
>Does she have a lot of white around
>her face or a blaze on top of her head?
I do and i hear just fine , what did you say again ?
steve
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| swamp |
On 25 Jun 2004 17:17:16 GMT, jimw1956@cs.comnojunk (Jim Williams)
wrote:
>>Yea, marshalls sucks
>
>This was a comment from a recent post I read on the board here.
>
>On the comment above, I was just curious....I hear a lot of condemnation of
>Marshall's. That is where our Gwen came from and where our four current
>adoptees came from. Gwen was a great ferret, with a wonderful disposition and
>personality, and our four current fuzzies have the same traits. I do notice
>that Marshall's ferrets seem to be somewhat smallish, but all four of these
>seem healthy, happy, and active for the most part.
Most complaints against Marshall Farms are emotional and fueled by
personal objection to use of animals in medical research. MF breeds
both ferrets and beagles for this purpose, and to those who find the
practice immoral MF can do no right. My only complaint w/ them was
their secrecy and denial of ECE among their animals back in Feb/April
of '98, when many people noted outbreaks of green diarrhea in their
businesses shortly after introducing an MF kit.
>Does anyone have a link to solid evidence that Marshall's ferrets are in fact
>inferior to other breeders, or could it just be that they sell so many that you
>naturally hear of more of the problems?
No, and probably. MF supplies roughly half the pet ferrets in North
America, so logically, half the sick ferrets in NA are bound to be MF
ferrets. MF takes pains to introduce new bloodlines to their stock
every year, and as Pam mentions, they hire kids to come in and handle
the kits and socialize them as much as possible. As JM mentions,
they're also pretty good about keeping their customers satisfied.
>I would really like to know this for
>future reference. As to our four current fuzzies, they needed a home and we
>just couldn't turn them down, regardless.
Of course not. Regardless of one's leanings on animal rights it's
never the animal's fault. You take the animal in and investigate the
rest later. MF isn't perfect, but they don't "suck" either, imo. There
are many small private breeders whose operations are more open to
question than MF's.
-- swamp
"Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
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| Jason and Holly Harper |
My opinion of Marshall's has been stated already in another post, but I'll
write again. :) I don't believe MF out and out sucks. I don't totally
agree with how most of the farms operate. I don't necessarily disagree with
breeding but I do prefer to have healthy stock. Two of my four MF ferts
have had adrenal. One boy that was from an unknown breeder has had lympho
so it could just be that ferrets aren't long lived. But I do agree that my
MF ferts have had wonderful personalities. I'm probably one of the few
people that doesn't have a problem with them selling for research. There
are some situations that I don't agree with research being done on animals.
However, if some animals have to be sacrificed for our pets to live longer
and healthier lives then it has to be done. We never would've found a
rabies vaccine if not for the research. And if we didn't have that, then
I'm sure we would've lost some pets due to people being scratched or bitten.
:( I wish that research didn't have to be done, but unfortunately it does.
I understand that all of the farms are businesses and need/want to make
money. But I've also seen how many ferrets are residents at shelters and it
just breaks my heart that one ferret, an older ferret in most cases, are
cast aside, while kits are being bought at stores. I bought two ferrets
before I even knew about the rescue/shelter situation, and when they passed
away I rescued/adopted three ferrets from people that didn't want them
anymore, and I bought one ferret who stole my heart at the pet store. So I
don't blame anyone for buying a kit, because every once in awhile you need
that in your life, or it may be your only option with a ferret who doesn't
get along with older ferrets but can with a kit. But while there are still
ferrets looking for homes, that's what I recommend first. :)
Holly
"Jim Williams" <jimw1956@cs.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040625131716.19087.00000567@mb-m06.news.cs.com...
> >Yea, marshalls sucks
>
> This was a comment from a recent post I read on the board here.
>
> On the comment above, I was just curious....I hear a lot of condemnation
of
> Marshall's. That is where our Gwen came from and where our four current
> adoptees came from. Gwen was a great ferret, with a wonderful disposition
and
> personality, and our four current fuzzies have the same traits. I do
notice
> that Marshall's ferrets seem to be somewhat smallish, but all four of
these
> seem healthy, happy, and active for the most part.
>
> Does anyone have a link to solid evidence that Marshall's ferrets are in
fact
> inferior to other breeders, or could it just be that they sell so many
that you
> naturally hear of more of the problems? I would really like to know this
for
> future reference. As to our four current fuzzies, they needed a home and
we
> just couldn't turn them down, regardless.
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| Pain Devine |
I'm the one that said "Marshals Sucks" and will stick by it. They are a
"Puppy Mill" plain and simple. I'm not saying they are bad people, I'm just
saying "what" they are doing is a bad way to raise animals. All of my
ferrets came from marshals and they all died or are dieing of cancer. One at
5yrs, another at 7, and the last is 6 and still alive but slowly dieing.
I'll be waking up in a few hours to force feed her because lately her
failing liver makes her too nauseous to eat.
When you buy any animal... you should buy it from a small reputable breeder.
It will cost you 5x as much and you'll probably have to drive 1/2 way across
the country to find them, but for the sake of the animals, do it right.
Cheap, is not the way to go. Assembly lines don't produce living things very
well.
Do you have any idea what would have happened to that store and/or marshals
if that incident had gotten to the federal government? A representative
telling you a highly contagious disease was perfectly normal and then
failing to clean their cage, putting new animals into it, and then selling
those animals to other pet owners, while you had documented proof that you
had repeatedly requested they do something about the problem several times.
I bet you even had paperwork from the vet. They could have quarantined the
store, even the entire chain, maybe even the entire Marshals breeding site.
If marshals competitors got wind of it they could have petitioned their
state and federal governments to prevent export of their products do to
"Public Health issues." Remember the "Mad Cow" scare? A false positive on 1
cow prevented the entire US beef industry from exporting for nearly a week.
The economic losses to the industry were about $2.4 billion. Now imagine if
the cattle industry had paid they guy $900 for the dead cow and said "We'll
take care of this"
<jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Qg%Cc.13555$w07.7208@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I agree with you, Jim. Over the years I've heard so many bad things about
> Marshalls. However, of the five ferrets I've had over the years, the
> Marshalls ferrets I've had were the most personable, friendliest, smartest
> and most loveable of the ferrets I've owned - hands down.
>
> Also, my personal experience with Gilbert (my most recent Marshalls ferret
> that i just got a few months ago from a Petco) turned out to show me a
> little bit FIRST HAND about Marshalls and how they handle problems. I
think
> people need to know how Marshalls handles a problem, so I'm sharing this
> story that happened over the past two months:
>
> The day I bought Gilbert, the checkout girl at Petco said she didn't know
> where the paperwork was for the ferrets, took my address and said they
would
> mail it to me. They did not. Even after repeated calls to the store,
they
> did not (it was a 4 hour drive from my home, otherwise I would have just
> driven over there and gotten results, no doubt). I kept getting promises,
> but no paperwork.
>
> In the meantime, we discovered that Gilbert came to me with ECE - and I
> didn't know it when I brought him home because his poops looked fine. I
had
> him checked out at the vet, stool tests, etc, before I put him in with
Kylie
> (I needed to be able to put a kit in with her because of her temperament
she
> would not accept an adult ferret, so we just got a full & complete vet
> check, then let them share the cage and play together - usually not a good
> idea, but this was an exception for good reasons). Days later, Kylie
> became sick and had green slimy diarrhea. Then Gilbert came down with it.
> The vet said that it was ECE brought in by the new kit. Both ferrets were
> very very sick for weeks. I incurred a total of $857.00 in vet bills. I
> made a trip back to the Petco where Gilbert was purchased and talked with
> the manager there, who advised me that ALL ferrets have ECE, even tho
> various strains, so probably Gilbert had a different strain than Kylie
had
> ever been exposed to, so that's why she got so sick (duh.......I KNOW
better
> than that, but he stood there and lied straight to my face with all the
> authority in the world (ha ha), then walked away, stating they had no
> responsibility). His attitude is what put me over the top and made me
take
> action. His ignorance scared me for future ferrets passing thru his
store.
>
> Now that the ferrets have pretty well stabilized (Kylie is still showing
> symptoms off and on and it has reallly taken a toll on her overall
health),
> about 10 days ago I went to both the Petco corporate site and also the
> Marshall's online site and used their "contact us" link to send both of
them
> emails to tell them what had happened. I wanted #1:the enclosure where I
> purchased Gilbert made safe for future ferrets (ECE is incredibly
contagious
> and for a long time, so future kits passing thru that enclosure were in
> danger of getting ECE); #2: I wanted paperwork for Gilbert, and #3: I
> wanted to let them know how much this had cost me. I wrote that letter at
> about 11pm one evening.
>
> First thing the next morning when I checked my email, I found email from
> both Petco and Marshalls. The Petco email said that the manager of the
> store where Gilbert was purchased would be contacting me......my telephone
> rang about 10 minutes after I read their email and I was advised that
Petco
> would reimburse me ALL the medical bills incurred as a result of
purchasing
> Gilbert - yes, even Kylie's vet bills! I was to fax the bills to them
that
> day and a check would be mailed to me immediately (that's a LOT of
money!!).
>
> The Marshall's email simply had the name of a Marshalls representative and
> an 800 phone number, said they were very concerned about my report and
> simply asked that I contact her immediately. When I called her, she was
> very familiar with the case, recognized my name right away, was very very
> concerned about the ECE report I had written. She wanted details galore
> about the store and what I was told when I talked to the manager about ECE
> with conerns for the remaining ferrets in the cage, etc. She assured me
> that 'we are VERY aware of ECE and we understand the severity of this
> situation and it WILL be dealt with immediately' and the store will be
> educated on ECE for the safety of future ferrets and their owners and they
> will make changes or they won't receive anymore Marshalls ferrets. Then
she
> wanted information for Gilbert's name, color, etc, so she could send me a
> birth certificate for him AND went on to begin asking (on her own) about
the
> vet bills that had been incurred. When I told her that Petco had already
> promised to reimburse me for them, she said that if I ran into any
problems
> whatsoever with getting that money refunded, that I was to call her back
and
> let her know and that the vet bills WILL be reimbursed, one way or another
> (either from Petco OR from Marshalls); that Marshall's stands behind their
> ferrets and furthermore they were very grateful that Gilbert had found a
> home that had gotten him, and Kylie, the vet care that was needed when
they
> were sick, and she was glad they were both okay now. Mind you, this is
with
> me having absolutely NOTHING to prove Gilbert was even a Marshalls ferret
> except a receipt from Petco.
>
> So, in all I've heard about Marshalls in the past, I can only share my
> personal experience with them in the worst of situations and the way they
> handled it - I was incredibly impressed. Funny thing.......just now while
I
> was writing this, hubby brought in the mail and Gilbert's birth
certificate
> was in it! :-)) He's now 'legitimate' :-) I understand all the push
for
> adopting from shelters, for not supporting the big breeders, and I'm sure
> they all have some merit to them and I understand the passion behind the
> opinions. However, I must say that my personal experience with both
> Marshalls as a company AND the ferrets themselves, I must say 'thumbs up'
to
> Marshalls (and I know that's not a particularly popular opinion, so save
the
> flames for someone who can be swayed - it's a waste of time to try to sway
> my opinion). Gilbert couldn't be a sweeter, more cuddly, smarter ferret
if
> I had designed him personally and had him custom-built! We're all
entitled
> to our opinions........and that's mine.
>
> jacquie, kyllie & gilbert
>
>
> "Jim Williams" <jimw1956@cs.comnojunk> wrote in message
> news:20040625131716.19087.00000567@mb-m06.news.cs.com...
> > >Yea, marshalls sucks
> >
> > This was a comment from a recent post I read on the board here.
> >
> > On the comment above, I was just curious....I hear a lot of condemnation
> of
> > Marshall's. That is where our Gwen came from and where our four current
> > adoptees came from. Gwen was a great ferret, with a wonderful
disposition
> and
> > personality, and our four current fuzzies have the same traits. I do
> notice
> > that Marshall's ferrets seem to be somewhat smallish, but all four of
> these
> > seem healthy, happy, and active for the most part.
> >
> > Does anyone have a link to solid evidence that Marshall's ferrets are in
> fact
> > inferior to other breeders, or could it just be that they sell so many
> that you
> > naturally hear of more of the problems? I would really like to know
this
> for
> > future reference. As to our four current fuzzies, they needed a home
and
> we
> > just couldn't turn them down, regardless.
>
>
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| Pain Devine |
They sell ferrets to medical research? I didn't even know that. Now I REALLY
hate them.
I would rather see a human die than a ferret due to medical research. ****
the research. I'm in school to be a scientist myself and I damn well
gaurentee you, I'll never experiment on animals Granted, I'm going into
physics.
If currently there's no way to perform my experiment without hurting an
animal, do you know what the first thing I would study would be? "How to do
my experiment without hurting animals!" For the love of god. The logic is so
simple. If I can run simulations that can predict the formation of the
universe up to about 10^-35 seconds after the big band... (and I can) why
can't I find out if this one drugs gonna kill someone? Oh, thats right,
super computer computing time is expensive, while ferrets are not.
If they really need a live subject, have a lotery. If you want to benifit
from the re-search you have to enter the lotery. So if you want that fancy
new hairspray, there's a small chance you might win the lotery and have to
get sprayed in the eyes with it. Or develop boils all over your nose... or
whatever. I have no problem with medical experimentation on consenting
adults.
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| Pam |
Curios, What are you feeding your ferrets? There is a particular
reason I am asking this.
Pam
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| Pam |
Got to chime in. Instead of using animals on research, why not the
hundreds/thousands of men/women who are taking up tax dollars and
sitting in death row in prisons?
When they committed a crime and ended up in prison, they forfeited their
right to benefits of any kind.
Pam
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| Gary & Darlene |
Fantastic!!
Someone who has the same sentiments as I do!
A person who had no regard for another's life, should not be given any.
They have forfeited their rights as a human by acting inhuman, and that
would be the perfect way to partly repay society for what they did.
I usually just have to keep this opinion to myself because of all the
bleeding
hearts out there.
"Pam" <luvthyferrets@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29538-40E53F96-374@storefull-3211.bay.webtv.net...
> Got to chime in. Instead of using animals on research, why not the
> hundreds/thousands of men/women who are taking up tax dollars and
> sitting in death row in prisons?
>
> When they committed a crime and ended up in prison, they forfeited their
> right to benefits of any kind.
>
> Pam
>
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| Pain Devine |
Unfortunately 7% of all people on deathrow are later found not-guilty. Also,
we have this little thing called the constitution that prevents "Cruel and
unusual punishment" I only support testing on consenting adults. I think
that the people that would like to benefit from the re-search should have to
volunteer for it. And yes, I'm willing to give up the benefits of animal
research. Even if people die. Especially if people die... then maybe the
morons doctors would get a kick in the ass to start actually trying rather
than throwing random drugs at guinea pigs.
"Gary & Darlene" <glemke@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:BkcFc.8312$_L5.43444@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
> Fantastic!!
> Someone who has the same sentiments as I do!
> A person who had no regard for another's life, should not be given any.
> They have forfeited their rights as a human by acting inhuman, and that
> would be the perfect way to partly repay society for what they did.
> I usually just have to keep this opinion to myself because of all the
> bleeding
> hearts out there.
>
> "Pam" <luvthyferrets@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:29538-40E53F96-374@storefull-3211.bay.webtv.net...
> > Got to chime in. Instead of using animals on research, why not the
> > hundreds/thousands of men/women who are taking up tax dollars and
> > sitting in death row in prisons?
> >
> > When they committed a crime and ended up in prison, they forfeited their
> > right to benefits of any kind.
> >
> > Pam
> >
>
>
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| Pain Devine |
Pro-Plan Lamb and Rice cat food. It's the only thing they'll eat.
"Pam" <luvthyferrets@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29538-40E53EC0-373@storefull-3211.bay.webtv.net...
> Curios, What are you feeding your ferrets? There is a particular
> reason I am asking this.
>
> Pam
>
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"Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:10ea9qo23c1bm02@corp.supernews.com...
> I'm the one that said "Marshals Sucks" and will stick by it.
(snip)
> Do you have any idea what would have happened to that store and/or
marshals
> if that incident had gotten to the federal government? A representative
> telling you a highly contagious disease was perfectly normal and then
> failing to clean their cage, putting new animals into it, and then selling
> those animals to other pet owners, while you had documented proof that you
> had repeatedly requested they do something about the problem several
times.
> I bet you even had paperwork from the vet. They could have quarantined the
> store, even the entire chain, maybe even the entire Marshals breeding
site.
> If marshals competitors got wind of it they could have petitioned their
> state and federal governments to prevent export of their products do to
> "Public Health issues." Remember the "Mad Cow" scare? A false positive on
1
> cow prevented the entire US beef industry from exporting for nearly a
week.
> The economic losses to the industry were about $2.4 billion. Now imagine
if
> the cattle industry had paid they guy $900 for the dead cow and said
"We'll
> take care of this"
>
Somehow I think one sick ferret would not unleash all the federal government
authorities on either the pet store, marshall farms or anywhere else. I
think you have a good imagination tho. Everyone has their opinion on this.
Believe me, cost or location of the ferret I wanted had absolutely nothing
to do with me getting this particular ferret. I had my reasons I chose him.
I didn't go into that store shopping for a ferret, but I did come out with
him. It was because of his personality - plain and simple. And I would
have just as easily paid $500 for him to take him home with me that day.
So, don't 'assume' that I purchased a Marshall Farms ferret because he was
'cheap' or 'easy to get'. Our eyes met, locked, he 'barked' at me (I hadn't
heard a ferret bark in the 9 years I've had one). He KNEW how to get my
attention and wanted to be sure he did get my attention. This boy wanted to
go home with me. Period. No one was more surprised that day that I came
home with a ferret. So, don't try to tell me that Marshall Farms doesn't
turn out some SMART ferrets that have wonderful personalities. Spend a day
with Gilbert, then tell me what you think of Marshall Farms ferrets. Until
you do that, as far as I'm concerned, your opinion doesn't mean anything to
me.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I won't argue this
with you. I have PROOF of the kind of ferrets they turn out right here
snoozin on my lap. He's probably the most cuddly, sweet tempered, loving
ferret that has ever crossed my doorstep. **** happens. The Petco got
ECE - don't think it couldn't happen at your house or at any small breeder's
house either. Wake up and realize how narrow minded your thinking is. ECE
is terribly contagious and can be carried to your ferrets on your clothes if
you just happen to contact a ferret who has ECE. It doesn't just happen at
large breeders and, if it did, the whole government and economy would not
come unglued.......trust me on that.
jumpingmouse, kylie & gilbert
|
|
|
| Pain Devine |
Does Marshals have "nice" ferrets? Yes! They found good, well behaved, cute
and cudly stock and have been inbreading them ever since to keep the family
line going. The Marshals ferrets aren't bad... it's Marshals that's bad.
Breaders simply shouldn't be that large, plain and simple.
Are Marshal ferrets healthy? No... Most non-marshal ferrets I've seen live
to 10-15 years. I've never seen a Marshals live past 7... I'm sure it
happens, but not often. Puppy mills = Inbreading = cancer
Do I think Marshals has a PR department that regularly posts in this forum?
Yes, I do. Being the largest breader in the world, it would only make sense
for them to post in the main public ferret forum to make themselves look
better. If I owned the company, I'd be sure to have someone working on it.
<jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kZjFc.2375$oD3.1039@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
> news:10ea9qo23c1bm02@corp.supernews.com...
> > I'm the one that said "Marshals Sucks" and will stick by it.
>
> (snip)
>
> > Do you have any idea what would have happened to that store and/or
> marshals
> > if that incident had gotten to the federal government? A representative
> > telling you a highly contagious disease was perfectly normal and then
> > failing to clean their cage, putting new animals into it, and then
selling
> > those animals to other pet owners, while you had documented proof that
you
> > had repeatedly requested they do something about the problem several
> times.
> > I bet you even had paperwork from the vet. They could have quarantined
the
> > store, even the entire chain, maybe even the entire Marshals breeding
> site.
> > If marshals competitors got wind of it they could have petitioned their
> > state and federal governments to prevent export of their products do to
> > "Public Health issues." Remember the "Mad Cow" scare? A false positive
on
> 1
> > cow prevented the entire US beef industry from exporting for nearly a
> week.
> > The economic losses to the industry were about $2.4 billion. Now imagine
> if
> > the cattle industry had paid they guy $900 for the dead cow and said
> "We'll
> > take care of this"
> >
>
> Somehow I think one sick ferret would not unleash all the federal
government
> authorities on either the pet store, marshall farms or anywhere else. I
> think you have a good imagination tho. Everyone has their opinion on
this.
> Believe me, cost or location of the ferret I wanted had absolutely nothing
> to do with me getting this particular ferret. I had my reasons I chose
him.
> I didn't go into that store shopping for a ferret, but I did come out with
> him. It was because of his personality - plain and simple. And I would
> have just as easily paid $500 for him to take him home with me that day.
> So, don't 'assume' that I purchased a Marshall Farms ferret because he was
> 'cheap' or 'easy to get'. Our eyes met, locked, he 'barked' at me (I
hadn't
> heard a ferret bark in the 9 years I've had one). He KNEW how to get my
> attention and wanted to be sure he did get my attention. This boy wanted
to
> go home with me. Period. No one was more surprised that day that I came
> home with a ferret. So, don't try to tell me that Marshall Farms doesn't
> turn out some SMART ferrets that have wonderful personalities. Spend a
day
> with Gilbert, then tell me what you think of Marshall Farms ferrets.
Until
> you do that, as far as I'm concerned, your opinion doesn't mean anything
to
> me.
>
> You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. I won't argue
this
> with you. I have PROOF of the kind of ferrets they turn out right here
> snoozin on my lap. He's probably the most cuddly, sweet tempered, loving
> ferret that has ever crossed my doorstep. **** happens. The Petco got
> ECE - don't think it couldn't happen at your house or at any small
breeder's
> house either. Wake up and realize how narrow minded your thinking is.
ECE
> is terribly contagious and can be carried to your ferrets on your clothes
if
> you just happen to contact a ferret who has ECE. It doesn't just happen
at
> large breeders and, if it did, the whole government and economy would not
> come unglued.......trust me on that.
>
> jumpingmouse, kylie & gilbert
>
>
>
>
|
|
|
| swamp |
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 04:32:39 -0500, "Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com>
wrote:
>They sell ferrets to medical research? I didn't even know that. Now I REALLY
>hate them.
I'm sure they'll be devastated by the news.
>I would rather see a human die than a ferret due to medical research.
Including your father, mother, sister, brother, husband, wife, child,
friend... yourself?
>****
>the research. I'm in school to be a scientist myself and I damn well
>gaurentee you, I'll never experiment on animals Granted, I'm going into
>physics.
The Earth's first space travelers were animals. Would you have
disapproved of those experiments as well?
>If currently there's no way to perform my experiment without hurting an
>animal, do you know what the first thing I would study would be? "How to do
>my experiment without hurting animals!" For the love of god. The logic is so
>simple. If I can run simulations that can predict the formation of the
>universe up to about 10^-35 seconds after the big band... (and I can) why
>can't I find out if this one drugs gonna kill someone?
Because the motion of celestial objects both forwards and backwards in
time is simple mathematics. If biology worked that way every major
pharmaceutical in the world would use math.
( I must note however that even in astrophysics, no one's sure
whether the universe will collapse back in on itself or continue to
expand indefinitely.)
>Oh, thats right,
>super computer computing time is expensive, while ferrets are not.
Actually, maintaining the animals is incredibly more expensive than
computers, even the super ones. Ferrets (and other mammals) have
livers, lungs, hearts, kidneys, etc that react to most drugs
identically to our own. 100 years on a Cray 5 wouldn't predict a drug
as accurately as a year using animals. Maybe some day...
>If they really need a live subject, have a lotery. If you want to benifit
>from the re-search you have to enter the lotery. So if you want that fancy
>new hairspray, there's a small chance you might win the lotery and have to
>get sprayed in the eyes with it. Or develop boils all over your nose... or
>whatever. I have no problem with medical experimentation on consenting
>adults.
Draize testing is no longer done on animals in the US, so the
hairspray thing is inflammatory (pun intended) and an intentional
deception used by AR groups. Don't get caught up w/ those fools.
If it makes you happy, *all* drugs tested on animals are eventually
tested on human volunteers before they're approved by the FDA. If it
makes you really happy, ~1/3 of the drugs tested on animals and humans
are eventually approved for use in treating sick animals.
Humans aren't the only animals who benefit from the research,
-- swamp
"Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
|
|
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| Pam |
I never had a Marshalls pass on before 9-1/2 years old.
When I use to deal with rats, the breeders actually did inbreed. They
tried to get good genes going. I remember talking to the one lady about
this (she's in Cal.) and she said that inbreeding to an extent is good.
Maybe, you'd get some rats who wouldn't get mammary tumors or cancer,
and also for the temperament. Then you'd want to keep carrying that
gene, as long as you could.
I truly think a lot of these ferrets are dying early, actually from
their diet. Some food (no names) has an extremely high content of
magnesium in it. Me, I have come to do almost the opposite of what
people have said to do, and now have ferrets living past 10 years old,
and they are Marshalls. I also have Triple F living long lives and my
Path Valley are still young ones.
I only ever had one ferret with adrenal. She came to me at age 7!! was
diagnosed at 9-1/2 with adrenal. She is taking mitotane (which they
say is a NO NO, causes insulinoma.)well she's been on this over a year
now with NO side affects what soever. In fact, she can put some of the
large boys to shame!! She is turning gray, from old age. Ever see a
ferret with actual gray hair?
Pam & The 20 Maniacs
|
|
|
|
"Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com> wrote in message
news:10ebkc5in3id553@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Do I think Marshals has a PR department that regularly posts in this
forum?
> Yes, I do. Being the largest breader in the world, it would only make
sense
> for them to post in the main public ferret forum to make themselves look
> better. If I owned the company, I'd be sure to have someone working on it.
I would like to think that we are that important, but considering that there
are literally HUNDREDS of ferret groups and forums on the internet, i can't
imagine why they would choose this one. This is one of the least used of all
the ones I belong to. Maybe a lot of folks lurking, but few post. Their
time would be better spent at other ferret forums, IF what you said were
true. If they went to the trouble to hire someone, surely they would
already know that information.
Very very few ferrets I've heard of live to be 10-15 years old, no matter
where you get them and yes, some that I know of who have lived that old were
(ahh!) Marshalls. The average lifespan of an 'average' ferret is 6 to 8
years......no matter where you get it. You get a ferret and you roll the
dice - whether from Marshalls or from a private breeder. A lot of what
determines how long a ferret lives is what he is fed and how much
interraction and mental stimulation he receives on a daily basis, and that
he receives regular vet check ups. Other than that, it's a crapshoot.
If you're feeding your ferret cat food, it won't live very long most likely.
If your ferret sits in his cage most of the day, he won't live as long; if
he is allowed to free roam and your home isn't ferretproofed properly, he
definitely won't live very long. So many variables. When you try to make
this a cut and dried statement that Marshall ferrets don't live as long as
others, I think it shows great naivete and lack of information. People make
judgments using only a limited amount of information and close their minds
to input from other sources, don't tend to be very accurate.
jumpingmouse, kylie & gilbert
|
|
|
|
:-))) I suspect that Pain DeVine lacks life experience.......we're seeing
youth in action here ;-)) I hope he/she spends lots more time in school
because obviously there is much much more to learn. Most importantly, that
things in this life just often aren't black/white situations. I don' t mind
folks being misinformed or narrow minded, as long as they don't expect
others to buy into their wild naive ideas and opinions. :-)
jumpingmouse, kylie & gilbert
"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
news:mclbe0tm0550l0u7epv9omavob6nhoufs6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 04:32:39 -0500, "Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com>
> wrote:
>
> >They sell ferrets to medical research? I didn't even know that. Now I
REALLY
> >hate them.
>
> I'm sure they'll be devastated by the news.
>
> >I would rather see a human die than a ferret due to medical research.
>
> Including your father, mother, sister, brother, husband, wife, child,
> friend... yourself?
>
> >****
> >the research. I'm in school to be a scientist myself and I damn well
> >gaurentee you, I'll never experiment on animals Granted, I'm going into
> >physics.
>
> The Earth's first space travelers were animals. Would you have
> disapproved of those experiments as well?
>
> >If currently there's no way to perform my experiment without hurting an
> >animal, do you know what the first thing I would study would be? "How to
do
> >my experiment without hurting animals!" For the love of god. The logic is
so
> >simple. If I can run simulations that can predict the formation of the
> >universe up to about 10^-35 seconds after the big band... (and I can)
why
> >can't I find out if this one drugs gonna kill someone?
>
> Because the motion of celestial objects both forwards and backwards in
> time is simple mathematics. If biology worked that way every major
> pharmaceutical in the world would use math.
>
> ( I must note however that even in astrophysics, no one's sure
> whether the universe will collapse back in on itself or continue to
> expand indefinitely.)
>
> >Oh, thats right,
> >super computer computing time is expensive, while ferrets are not.
>
> Actually, maintaining the animals is incredibly more expensive than
> computers, even the super ones. Ferrets (and other mammals) have
> livers, lungs, hearts, kidneys, etc that react to most drugs
> identically to our own. 100 years on a Cray 5 wouldn't predict a drug
> as accurately as a year using animals. Maybe some day...
>
> >If they really need a live subject, have a lotery. If you want to benifit
> >from the re-search you have to enter the lotery. So if you want that
fancy
> >new hairspray, there's a small chance you might win the lotery and have
to
> >get sprayed in the eyes with it. Or develop boils all over your nose...
or
> >whatever. I have no problem with medical experimentation on consenting
> >adults.
>
> Draize testing is no longer done on animals in the US, so the
> hairspray thing is inflammatory (pun intended) and an intentional
> deception used by AR groups. Don't get caught up w/ those fools.
>
> If it makes you happy, *all* drugs tested on animals are eventually
> tested on human volunteers before they're approved by the FDA. If it
> makes you really happy, ~1/3 of the drugs tested on animals and humans
> are eventually approved for use in treating sick animals.
>
> Humans aren't the only animals who benefit from the research,
>
> -- swamp
>
> "Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
|
|
|
|
I'm guessing she's from Washington state, whatcha think, Swamp?? LOL
Maybe one of Tracker's neighbors........like maybe a reeeeeeal close
neighbor; maybe even in her house using her computer? I don't know how to
check that stuff, but maybe someone on here could.....is it her? I don't
know why I didn't suspect that right off the bat. The spelling is
similar... LOL
Definitely a nutcase at the very least. If not Tracker, maybe we should
introduce them!
"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
news:ma1ce01lvilp87fd9lvgi8uktdqj4thgsd@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:20:06 -0500, "Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Does Marshals have "nice" ferrets? Yes! They found good, well behaved,
cute
> >and cudly stock and have been inbreading them ever since to keep the
family
> >line going. The Marshals ferrets aren't bad... it's Marshals that's bad.
> >Breaders simply shouldn't be that large, plain and simple.
>
> Simple for you. Considerably more complex for those of us who've done
> a great deal more thinking about the issue than you have.
>
> >Are Marshal ferrets healthy? No...
>
> Ipse dixit. Can you document?
>
> >Most non-marshal ferrets I've seen live to 10-15 years.
>
> You're out of your mind. No ferrets live 15 years. Very few make it to
> 10.
>
> >I've never seen a Marshals live past 7...
>
> I have. Adopted Mike in '95, probably a year old at the time. Died of
> cancer on 16 Sept. 03. Lucy's b-day was ~Feb 13, 98, and she'll be
> around a couple more years at least. Thanks to Lupron research...
>
> >I'm sure it happens, but not often.
>
> More often than you'd like, no doubt.
>
> >Puppy mills = Inbreading = cancer
>
> Nonsense. Think about it. How could a "mill" be more inbred than a
> small breeder?
>
> >Do I think Marshals has a PR department that regularly posts in this
forum?
> >Yes, I do.
>
> Conspiracy? Yeah, we ferret peddlers rank among the world's most
> treacherous criminals.
>
> >Being the largest breader in the world, it would only make sense
> >for them to post in the main public ferret forum to make themselves look
> >better. If I owned the company, I'd be sure to have someone working on
it.
>
> JM's in AZ(?). I'm in CA and way too busy at the moment to work for MF
> (NY).
>
> You're a nut,
>
> -- swamp
>
> "Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
|
|
|
| swamp |
On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:09:37 GMT, <jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>:-))) I suspect that Pain DeVine lacks life experience.......we're seeing
>youth in action here ;-)) I hope he/she spends lots more time in school
>because obviously there is much much more to learn. Most importantly, that
>things in this life just often aren't black/white situations. I don' t mind
>folks being misinformed or narrow minded, as long as they don't expect
>others to buy into their wild naive ideas and opinions. :-)
Yep, I think you're right. Guessing a 16 y/o girl w/ attitude. Still,
gotta correct for his/her sake as much as mine. An even deal. Just
trying to give a polite other POV. If I get out of line let me know.
>jumpingmouse, kylie & gilbert
-- swamp
"Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
|
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| Pain Devine |
I admit that I hate the medical profession. Modern doctors, and researchers
are a joke. And yet, we uphold doctors as the "smartest" among us. The still
have no idea why most drugs they give us work... But hey, they throw em at
animals and they sorta work so then they throw em at people to. Then they
charge me $200 a bottle for all their "research" and laugh all the way to
the bank.
"Scott Thomas" <thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu> wrote in message
news:U%lFc.700$X84.604@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Pain Devine wrote:
>
> > I only support testing on consenting adults. I think
> > that the people that would like to benefit from the re-search should
have to
> > volunteer for it.
>
> The difficulty with using people for such things is that people can and
> do hire lawyers who'll scream about how the person "wasn't properly
> informed of the risks." Give the test subjects proper informing of
> risks, possible benefits, etc., and suddenly you've made it a lot
> tougher to even have a good _single_ blind study, much less a good
> double-blind.
>
>
> > And yes, I'm willing to give up the benefits of animal
> > research. Even if people die. Especially if people die...
>
> A noble and principled stand, if somewhat misanthropic. (You may not
> have meant to sound it, but that _almost_ appears to be wishing death on
> others.)
>
> Problem is, not everyone has the same values that you do. There are
> plenty of people who think that one human life is worth more than the
> lives of [insert random stupidly-large number here] small mammals.
>
>
> > then maybe the
> > morons doctors would get a kick in the ass to start actually trying
rather
> > than throwing random drugs at guinea pigs.
>
> Protocols for live testing aren't quite that sloppy, most places. (DoX
> implementations in _general_ don't allow for anything that sloppy in
> _any_ testing, since time is money.) Live testing doesn't occur because
> doctors, scientists, and engineers are morons (dump the _ad hominem_
> attack, it weakens your stance) - live testing occurs often because it's
> currently still more accurate than simulation. Live testing occurs
> because not everyone holds animal life in as high a regard as you do,
> and/or holds it in different regard to human/sentient/primate life.
> Live testing occurs because history has demonstrated that it's
> effective. Live testing _doesn't_ occur because the people performing
> it have the mentality of the neighborhood bully who shoots cats and
> throws rocks at dogs.
>
> I'm aware that by playing devil's advocate in this thread, I'm likely
> going to get tarred as a "bunny-killer." I _don't_ agree with many uses
> of animal testing, I _don't_ like it and _don't_ want it used without
> good reason. I would much rather not have a need for it at all. I
> don't work in places that perform animal testing. I try to be an
> informed consumer and avoid supporting companies that employ practices
> with which I don't agree (such as live testing, among other things). I
> make a point of rationally and reasonably trying to win others to my
> point of view with clear, concise, and accurate information.
>
> Not that I expect my disclaimer to defend me against the more rabid
> elements. :)
>
> --
> Scott Thomas, thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu
> http://www.cs.rose-hulman.edu/~thomass/
|
|
|
| lin |
"Pain Devine" <noway@jose.com> wrote
>
> When you buy any animal... you should buy it from a small reputable
breeder.
> It will cost you 5x as much and you'll probably have to drive 1/2 way
across
> the country to find them, but for the sake of the animals, do it right.
> Cheap, is not the way to go. Assembly lines don't produce living things
very
> well.
FWIW, my Ariel came from a small private breeder, & she cost the same as
Oberon (MF ferret from a pet store), & less than Puck (ditto, prices just
went up). Max came from Jean at Ferrets Unlimited shelter in Cleveland, &
all he cost me was the money I donated towards his surgery to have him
neutered, as well as the donations of supplies, etc, I give to the shelter
on a regular basis.
While I don't like Marshall's, either, because of their mass-breeding
practices, too-early spay/neutering/shipping practices, & involvement in
providing lab animals, I can't say my 2 MF's are any less healthy than my 2
non-MF's. Ariel (private breeder) has had adrenal surgery, & has a heart
condition that's totally undocumented in ferrets (superventricular
tachycardia - my vet's currently writing a paper on her for submission to a
veterinary medical journal. He's since come across one other ferret w/ this
condition, who's also being treated successfully). Max (rescue, but
obviously from a private breeder, as he was whole when he was rescued) is as
healthy as a horse (other than some intestinal infection he came down w/
when we recently got Puck, the new boy). Oberon & Puck are my MF ferrets, &
Oberon's had no health problems whatsoever (other than bad ear mites when we
got him). We've only had Puck for about 3 wks now, so there's no way to know
what the future holds for his health. No matter what, though, I will provide
the best veterinary care for him no matter what happens, cos he's part of
*our family* now.
I bought Oberon & Puck for the same reasons - they were deaf, & sitting in a
pet store where the personnel & management had no clue as to what they were
selling. The store mgr flipped Oberon over onto his back, pointed to his
"belly button", & informed me he was a female. Had they sold him (or Puck)
to someone who didn't know better, & gave them incorrect info about these
ferrets, who knows what would have become of them. The buyers might have
assumed they were either stupid or bad, & either returned them to the store,
given them to a shelter, or dumped them somewhere to die. It's not Oberon or
Puck's fault they were born at MF, & they deserve to have a decent life,
too. I know how to handle deaf ferrets (3 of my 4 are deaf - only Ariel can
hear), so why not give them the best life I can give them, & prevent some
moron from buying them, not knowing what they're getting into, & risking an
early death for them by no fault of their own?
I don't buy MF products. Their food sucks, then you have to buy their
Bi-Odor to make their **** stop stinking up the joint because of the crappy
food; they sell ridiculous little outfits for ferrets that virtually *no*
ferret will keep on for more than 3 nanoseconds; etc. All to make more
money. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if MF makes more money on
it's products than it does on ferrets. So I boycott their products.
If you're going to make a case for not liking MF, at least make sure you
don't like the stuff you're *sure* about. Price is not an issue...the
ferrets themselves aren't even the issue. Their ethics, to me, *are* the
issue.
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
|
|
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| lin |
Scientific testing on animals has *VERY* strict guidelines. The main
guideline is that animals be treated w/ respect, not put through any
unneccesary or needlessly painful procedures, & that should they have to
give their lives for science, it be done in a humane fashion. There are also
rules for handling, caging, length of time involved in research, feeding,
etc ad nausium.
My degree is in Psychology, & I worked as a lab asst on some published
faculty research projects involving animals. I had to weigh, measure,
inject, & run tests on animals (mice & rats), as well as harvest their brain
tissue for concluding data afterwards. The American Psychological Assn has a
massive list of rules we HAVE to follow. We could (& were) inspected w/out
warning whenever they felt like it. If we were not following their
guidelines to the LETTER, we risked having the research shut down, at the
very least, & the entire program shut down at the max.
My husband is a pharmacist. He also had to do surgeries & drug testing on
animals as part of his coursework. The agency that's in charge of the
pharmaceutical industry also had guidelines, that were almost identical to
those that the APA required us to follow.
Were it not for animal research, we wouldn't have treatments for diabetes,
cancer, migraines, appendicitis, leukemia, Alzheimer's (which killed my
MIL), ingrown toenails, human growth abnormalities, Parkinson's Disease
(which killed my grandfather), schizophrenia, cataracts, or multiple
sclerosis (which *I* have); & we certainly wouldn't have the amazing number
of people walking around today who are only alive because they received a
heart, lung, liver, or kidney transplant.
There is a place for animal research. Chances are, someone you love very
much would be dead right now w/out it.
The problem *I* have is w/ mass-breeders (MF) that *also* make money from
the pet trade. The two industries should NOT be combined. I think it creates
an ethical & emotional conflict in their customers on both sides of the
issue. Better to do just one or the other, & not both.
And, if I remember correctly, doesn't MF also breed beagles, for the same
purposes (pets & research)? So the dog lovers have something to bitch about,
too.
Greed sucks.
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
"Scott Thomas" <thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu> wrote in message
news:U%lFc.700$X84.604@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> Pain Devine wrote:
>
> > I only support testing on consenting adults. I think
> > that the people that would like to benefit from the re-search should
have to
> > volunteer for it.
>
> The difficulty with using people for such things is that people can and
> do hire lawyers who'll scream about how the person "wasn't properly
> informed of the risks." Give the test subjects proper informing of
> risks, possible benefits, etc., and suddenly you've made it a lot
> tougher to even have a good _single_ blind study, much less a good
> double-blind.
>
>
> > And yes, I'm willing to give up the benefits of animal
> > research. Even if people die. Especially if people die...
>
> A noble and principled stand, if somewhat misanthropic. (You may not
> have meant to sound it, but that _almost_ appears to be wishing death on
> others.)
>
> Problem is, not everyone has the same values that you do. There are
> plenty of people who think that one human life is worth more than the
> lives of [insert random stupidly-large number here] small mammals.
>
>
> > then maybe the
> > morons doctors would get a kick in the ass to start actually trying
rather
> > than throwing random drugs at guinea pigs.
>
> Protocols for live testing aren't quite that sloppy, most places. (DoX
> implementations in _general_ don't allow for anything that sloppy in
> _any_ testing, since time is money.) Live testing doesn't occur because
> doctors, scientists, and engineers are morons (dump the _ad hominem_
> attack, it weakens your stance) - live testing occurs often because it's
> currently still more accurate than simulation. Live testing occurs
> because not everyone holds animal life in as high a regard as you do,
> and/or holds it in different regard to human/sentient/primate life.
> Live testing occurs because history has demonstrated that it's
> effective. Live testing _doesn't_ occur because the people performing
> it have the mentality of the neighborhood bully who shoots cats and
> throws rocks at dogs.
>
> I'm aware that by playing devil's advocate in this thread, I'm likely
> going to get tarred as a "bunny-killer." I _don't_ agree with many uses
> of animal testing, I _don't_ like it and _don't_ want it used without
> good reason. I would much rather not have a need for it at all. I
> don't work in places that perform animal testing. I try to be an
> informed consumer and avoid supporting companies that employ practices
> with which I don't agree (such as live testing, among other things). I
> make a point of rationally and reasonably trying to win others to my
> point of view with clear, concise, and accurate information.
>
> Not that I expect my disclaimer to defend me against the more rabid
> elements. :)
>
> --
> Scott Thomas, thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu
> http://www.cs.rose-hulman.edu/~thomass/
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| Jason and Holly Harper |
Personally, Swamp, I don't think I could've said it better myself. :)
Holly
"swamp" <swamp92@> wrote in message
news:p53ce0p1sgac25cpg53toa2knj892149n2@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:09:37 GMT, <jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >:-))) I suspect that Pain DeVine lacks life experience.......we're
seeing
> >youth in action here ;-)) I hope he/she spends lots more time in
school
> >because obviously there is much much more to learn. Most importantly,
that
> >things in this life just often aren't black/white situations. I don' t
mind
> >folks being misinformed or narrow minded, as long as they don't expect
> >others to buy into their wild naive ideas and opinions. :-)
>
> Yep, I think you're right. Guessing a 16 y/o girl w/ attitude. Still,
> gotta correct for his/her sake as much as mine. An even deal. Just
> trying to give a polite other POV. If I get out of line let me know.
>
> >jumpingmouse, kylie & gilbert
>
> -- swamp
>
> "Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
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| Pam |
The scientific guidelines (legally) only applied to dogs/cats; Never
included rats/mice/birds. In Fact, they're trying to implement
something this year. According to the Veterinary Practice magazine.
****It is strange to hear people talk of Humanitarianism, who are
members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to children and
animals, and who claim to be God-loving men and women, but who,
nevertheless, encourage by their patronage the killing of animals merely
to gratify the cravings of appetite.
Otoman Zar-Adusht Ha'nish (1844-1936)
***The infliction of cruelty with a clear conscience is a delight to
moralists. That is why they invented hell.
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
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| Scott Thomas |
Pain Devine wrote:
> I admit that I hate the medical profession. Modern doctors, and researchers
> are a joke. And yet, we uphold doctors as the "smartest" among us. The still
> have no idea why most drugs they give us work... But hey, they throw em at
> animals and they sorta work so then they throw em at people to. Then they
> charge me $200 a bottle for all their "research" and laugh all the way to
> the bank.
I think that's either a gross generalization, or a particularly broad
brush that's based on a few personal anecdotes. Practicing medicine is
a funny field, with regards to scientific practice - medical researchers
follow scientific principles, while practicing health professionals have
(as their stated job goal) the betterment of health for their immediate
clientele (patients).
Doctors (MDs) _do_ tend to be very smart cookies - I've helped people
prep for their MCATs, and if the admissions test _alone_ is that scary,
then I can only imagine what med school is like. That's a lot of
complicated information and practical experience to absorb in the few
years they're in school and doing their internships and initial
residencies. Yeah, there are some who are in it for the wrong reasons,
and aren't going to come out of it as the best doctors on the other end.
Given how the rewards of being a doctor are few and getting fewer
(both financial and emotional) and how tough it is to get there and to
_do_ the job, I still tend to believe that most doctors are in it
because it's a calling.
Do you understand, down to a cellular and intracellular level, why
putting a cold compress on an injury reduces swelling and eases pain?
If not, does that stop you from putting an ice pack on your head when
you bump yer noggin on something? I agree there are instances when
medical science may not completely understand the mechanics of
something, but I don't think that's entirely the rule anymore. Maybe in
the case of _new_ drugs, but metabolic pathways and such for a lot of
drugs (aspirin, quinine, etc.) are quite well-known.
People fear and often resent that which they don't understand - and
that includes those who may know and understand things they don't.
Furthermore, I think your blame for the cost of medical health care is
misplaced. Prescription drugs are expensive? Pharma companies set
prices, and gov't regulates patents and trade secret laws - which may
prevent cheaper imports and generics from being available. Know why the
pharma companies do business the way they do? Their shareholders demand
maximum profitability. Want to know why doctors _have_ to charge as
much as they do? Look into medical malpractice insurance, how expensive
it's gotten and how frequently it has to be called upon (not because
malpractice is that common, but because malpractice _lawsuits_ are, and
settlements are nearly always cheaper than full-fledged court action).
The medical field is no more evil than most, and much less so than many
others.
--
Scott Thomas, thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.cs.rose-hulman.edu/~thomass/
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| Scott Thomas |
lin wrote:
> There is a place for animal research. Chances are, someone you love very
> much would be dead right now w/out it.
You must have missed the point where PD said s/he _would_ be willing to
forego the benefits of animal research and testing - s/he sounded
particularly eager to have people die (either as a result of the lack of
testing, or as the subjects of necessary testing).
> The problem *I* have is w/ mass-breeders (MF) that *also* make money from
> the pet trade. The two industries should NOT be combined. I think it creates
> an ethical & emotional conflict in their customers on both sides of the
> issue. Better to do just one or the other, & not both.
Which is a much more salient point, with regards to MF. Even without
combining the two markets (which makes business, if not ethical sense),
I don't like the notion of mass breeders. Product saturation is _known_
to create a larger market through greater penetration, and that's
exactly what mass-breeding does. It puts these animals _everywhere_, at
a much lower price, and pushes them down to impulse-purchasing levels.
If there weren't any mass-breeders, then maybe ferrets (for example)
_would_ cost $500-1000 apiece. No more families just taking them home
because they looked cute and only cost about a hundred buck. Instead,
all purchases would be (more likely to be) well thought-out and made by
informed and prepared people who understand what they're getting into
(simply because the price demanded it).
--
Scott Thomas, thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.cs.rose-hulman.edu/~thomass/
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| wildchld97 |
I have known about MF using their ferrets for medical research and I don't
personally agree with it...but there's not much I can do about it. I have
three MF ferrets. One was purchased from a pet store and the other two were
sold privately to me. They are all very sweet tempered and have not had any
illnesses yet. (They are 5, 4, and 3 years old respectively). I'm not
saying that just because my ferrets aren't sick that there isn't a
correlation with MF selling ferrets that have a tendency to develop medical
problems though. I'm just saying that I guess I've been lucky.
I *do* have a problem with how young that they neuter/spay and descent the
poor things though. It ruins their growth hormones and that's why they
never grow very big. People claim that it's necessary to do these
proceedures before they're sold, because the general public does not
understand the medical necessity to make sure an unbred female ferret is
spayed or what an unneutered male will smell like when he goes into rut.
They're afraid that many of the ferrets would be abandoned or die.
That's fine if you're content to sell high maintenence animals to morons
just for the sake of making a buck...but IMHO...the ferrets should only be
sold to people who are *proven* to be knowledgeable in their care. *THEN*
they can give those folks a voucher to get them spayed/neutered at a later
date. They can also decide for themselves whether or not to descent them.
These are my opinions only and do not reflect those of my fuzzies or anyone
else that I know....lol
<soap box mode *off*>
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| lin |
"Pam" <luvthyferrets@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3138-40E69245-590@storefull-3213.bay.webtv.net...
> The scientific guidelines (legally) only applied to dogs/cats; Never
> included rats/mice/birds.
They most certainly DID in the '70's & '80's. I fail to believe that they
suddenly decided, since then, "oh, to hell w/ mice/rats/birds - let's just
torture the hell outta them."
I worked w/ mice & rats. My husband worked w/ mice, rats & rabbits (that I
know for sure about - he may have worked w/ other species). And you better
*believe* we had to follow strict guidelines on how we handled those
animals. And, considering the fact that it was posted, in black & white on
the walls of the animal building, & all the labs, there was no missing it.
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
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| lin |
"Scott Thomas" <thomass@cs.rose-hulman.edu> wrote in message
news:oOAFc.414$m%7.307@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> lin wrote:
>
> > There is a place for animal research. Chances are, someone you love very
> > much would be dead right now w/out it.
>
> You must have missed the point where PD said s/he _would_ be willing to
> forego the benefits of animal research and testing - s/he sounded
> particularly eager to have people die (either as a result of the lack of
> testing, or as the subjects of necessary testing).
Fine - until it's her who's got the disease. Believe me, until I started
showing symptoms of my MS 13 yrs ago, I didn't give it much thought. I've
been on meds that were unheard of 15 yrs ago, that were tested on animals,
then humans, then the FDA pushed them through post haste. If not for some of
those meds, would I be in a wheelchair now? Maybe - there's no way to alter
time & see what could have been. But I *do* know that I've had much fewer
problems w/ my condition since I've been on those meds.
If a few thousand mice or rats gave their lives to help me & hundreds of
thousands like me, then I will praise those animals until the day I die.
And, FWIW, sometimes people *do* die during the human clinical trials of
meds. A couple died during the trials of one of the meds I'm on right now.
People will *never* see eye-to-eye on this subject. Which is fine. But if
someone's gonna be against something, be against it for reasons that can be
backed up w/ fact, not just emotion.
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
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| Lisa The Ferret Haven By the Sea |
I will add that a lot of the ferrets in testing are not killed once the testing
is complete, but released to ferret shelters. Richmond Ferret Rescue has an
agreement with UVA to have the ferrets released and they rehome.
I know I've gotten them in from Walter Reed memorial hospital..and they were
happy, healthy well adjusted boys.
Lisa Leidig, Head Ferret
The Ferret Haven "By-the-Sea"
http: www.ferrethaven.org
Want to help The Ferret Haven By-the-Sea? Register at iGive.com
by cutting and pasting this link:
http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?CID=1236&MID=854
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| lin |
Thanks for the reminder, Lisa. Of course, that's absolutely true. Not all
animals used in research need to be killed to get data from the research.
Many are not harmed in any way. (Reminds me of the med they used on rabbits
in one of Jim's pharmay classes, that turns their tears red. Didn't harm the
animal in any way - just dyed their tears.)
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, Max, & Puck
"Lisa The Ferret Haven By the Sea" <fhbythesea@aol.comferts4me> wrote in
message news:20040706122703.11526.00000921@mb-m23.aol.com...
> I will add that a lot of the ferrets in testing are not killed once the
testing
> is complete, but released to ferret shelters. Richmond Ferret Rescue has
an
> agreement with UVA to have the ferrets released and they rehome.
>
> I know I've gotten them in from Walter Reed memorial hospital..and they
were
> happy, healthy well adjusted boys.
>
>
> Lisa Leidig, Head Ferret
> The Ferret Haven "By-the-Sea"
> http: www.ferrethaven.org
> Want to help The Ferret Haven By-the-Sea? Register at iGive.com
> by cutting and pasting this link:
> http://www.iGive.com/html/ssi.cfm?CID=1236&MID=854
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| bc |
On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:28:40 GMT, <jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>I'm guessing she's from Washington state, whatcha think, Swamp?? LOL
>Maybe one of Tracker's neighbors........like maybe a reeeeeeal close
>neighbor; maybe even in her house using her computer? I don't know how to
>check that stuff, but maybe someone on here could.....is it her? I don't
>know why I didn't suspect that right off the bat. The spelling is
>similar... LOL
>
>Definitely a nutcase at the very least. If not Tracker, maybe we should
>introduce them!
>
>
Typical resort to an ad hominem argument for Jumping Rat when she's
losing the debate..>
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| swamp |
On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:34:23 GMT, bc <bc@msn.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:28:40 GMT, <jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I'm guessing she's from Washington state, whatcha think, Swamp?? LOL
>>Maybe one of Tracker's neighbors........like maybe a reeeeeeal close
>>neighbor; maybe even in her house using her computer? I don't know how to
>>check that stuff, but maybe someone on here could.....is it her? I don't
>>know why I didn't suspect that right off the bat. The spelling is
>>similar... LOL
It's possible. When someone uses Supernews like "Pain Devine" (or
Newsguy like me) you can't do an IP trace on them, or I don't know how
to do it either. I use Newsguy more for their up-to-date servers than
anonymity. Most of you know I'm in SoCal. If someone really wanted to
get me or my ferrets they could. If SB 89 passes I'll gladly pay the
$75/ferret registration fee and start using my real name. Owning
ferrets is the extent of my illegal activities. ...ok, I occasionally
drive too fast.
>>Definitely a nutcase at the very least. If not Tracker, maybe we should
>>introduce them!
Debbie is mentally ill. ARs are mentally deficient. I have more
sympathy for the mentally ill than the mentally deficient, especially
the ones who don't know they're mentally deficient.
bc wrote:
>Typical resort to an ad hominem argument for Jumping Rat when she's
>losing the debate..>
"bc" appears to be Ozzie. Mental deficiency iisn't a Yank monopoly,
-- swamp
"Who me officer? What's a ferut. These guys?? No, they're Polish cats."
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| MC |
Nope...it is called *HUMOR*.
If you have been here as long as we have, you would understand where her
comment came from.
MC
"bc" <bc@msn.net> wrote in message
news:pprle0hrod5o24nn74jcb76mcp2fha0l03@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:28:40 GMT, <jumpingmouse02@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> Typical resort to an ad hominem argument for Jumping Rat when she's
> losing the debate..>
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| Jim Williams |
>He was a Marked White who was bigger than any ferret I'd ever
>owned and he had a swagger when he walked.
Funny you should mentnion this...we have a striped ferret who also walks with a
swagger! Slightly heavy in the rear. Wonder if that is a trait of this
coloration?
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| Sam |
"wildchld97" <wildchld97@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I *do* have a problem with how young that they neuter/spay and descent the
> poor things though. It ruins their growth hormones and that's why they
> never grow very big. People claim that it's necessary to do these
> proceedures before they're sold, because the general public does not
> understand the medical necessity to make sure an unbred female ferret is
> spayed or what an unneutered male will smell like when he goes into rut.
> They're afraid that many of the ferrets would be abandoned or die.
Okay... I can only give what I know of a situation from a ferret farm
in New Zealand about this topic.
This particular ferret farm also neuter/descent at a young age. I knew
the vet who worked at the farm at that time, and spoke to her about
the situation. Firstly, she mentioned that they chose which kits were
operated on at what stage by their development. While they were
usually considered developed enough at four weeks, sometimes it was
later (yes, it means that the kits were operated on before their eyes
are even open). Secondly, they had been told the same information as
everyone else, that animals neutered at such an early stage would mean
that they would suffer health-wise, being far smaller and having far
more health problems than the animals who were neutered at an earlier
age, or left whole and bred from.
They would send shipments of kits from New Zealand to Japan for sale
as pets. One particular shipment was cancelled because of flight and
customs problems. The farm decided to keep them all in the same living
conditions, fed the same food, given the same care, as their breeding
stock. The last I heard (several years later) they were the same
general size/weight as the whole ferrets, and there were no
discernable health problems over and above that of the whole ferrets.
In other words, in this particular situation, there was no difference
between those ferrets who were whole, and those neutered early. (Note:
there are basic differences between whole/neutered ferrets, no matter
what age the ferrets are neutered, and these were taken into account)
Their reasons, BTW, for descenting and neutering at that stage was
just what you explained above... newcomers to ferrets who don't know
the risks for unspeyed jills, the smell of whole hobs in rut, and the
unmistakable reek of a ferret poof.
> That's fine if you're content to sell high maintenence animals to morons
> just for the sake of making a buck...but IMHO...the ferrets should only be
> sold to people who are *proven* to be knowledgeable in their care. *THEN*
> they can give those folks a voucher to get them spayed/neutered at a later
> date. They can also decide for themselves whether or not to descent them.
My opinion here differs... although I agree with the sentiment. Even
though the rather small sample above seemed to indicate that neutering
early makes no difference, I have a personal preference for neutering
late. I also have a preference for *not* descenting. I can't say as I
like the smell of poof, but I do appreciate that it's a main system of
defence, and can actually potentially save a life if a ferret should
escape.
However (you knew it was coming, right?!) here is where my opinion
differs. I believe that large farms, such as Marshall Farms and Path
Valley, serve a purpose. They actually do the ferret community a great
service, even though it looks just the opposite. They introduce new
people to ferrets. (I deliberately don't include Triple F in this -
Triple F started by breeding ferrets for fur, their ferrets have been
reknown for being biters, and that is NOT the type of publicity any
responsible ferret owners would endorse. I have no idea if Triple F
ferrets have changed in the past years though, since I haven't heard
anything either way)
Now, this is the problem, as far as many people are concerned. The
more morons who get caught up by that cute face in the pet store, the
more ferrets in shelters and living in bad conditions due to
ignorance! Unfortunately, this *is* a problem, and that particular
problem will remain, even though good education over time can help
matters to a degree.
When they introduce new people to ferrets, they spread the word about
ferrets to other people. The more people who know about ferrets, the
more education there is about ferrets. The more education there is,
the more people learn... the more people learn, the more people want
them, and the more people who own ferrets, the more vets who see them.
Suddenly, vets start seeing more ferrets, they are forced to learn
more about ferrets, they start to ask more questions about ferrets and
learn more about ferret illnesses. The more they ask, the more
research is done to help treat those illnesses. Why is there research
being done on ADV on ferrets? Because the ferret owners are insisting
that something be done to help get rid of this disease! Why is there
legislation in the US about ferrets being treated like cats and dogs
in regards to rabies/bites and quarantine? Because the larger the
ferret community becomes, the stronger it becomes, and situations like
that of Kodo can actually prople enough people to start the ball
rolling in getting that type of legislation passed!
Would any of this have happened without the ferret farms? Eventually,
possibly... but it wouldn't have happened yet. ADV would barely be
known, and definitely wouldn't be looked at right now. Ferrets would
automatically have their heads lopped off if they nipped someone, even
if they were up to date on their rabies vaccinations. Ferrets would be
dying of distemper, and people would possibly still be feeding them a
steady diet of bread soaked in milk! So... no, I don't like that
ferret farms breed such large numbers, but I appreciate the difference
they have made for the ferret community at large.
As always, JMO,
Sam
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