| OT:question for the Canadians here. - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page |
| Nanny |
I was wondering how the Canadians themselves think about the killing of
350000 young seals, and if and how they campaign against it.
Nanny
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| Lin |
I wouldn't be caught *dead* looking at anything the PETA freaks put out. Any
organaziation who's tactics include publicly accosting & frightening
children at Christmas-time, can go straight to hell, AFAIC.
Lin, Ariel, Oberon, & Max
".BRIAN." <USER@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:EWGfc.5325$S42.323@lakeread03...
> On 4/15/2004 9:28 PM .BRIAN. wrote:
>
> > http://www.peta.org/feat/reality/video.html
> >
>
> The web designer made the videos pretty small, so in order to see if you
> are using MediaPlayer, right-click them and select fullscreen.
>
> --
> Brian
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| .BRIAN. |
On 4/15/2004 9:59 PM Lin wrote:
> I wouldn't be caught *dead* looking at anything the PETA freaks put out. Any
> organaziation who's tactics include publicly accosting & frightening
> children at Christmas-time, can go straight to hell, AFAIC.
>
> ".BRIAN." <USER@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
>>
>>>http://www.peta.org/feat/reality/video.html
I don't like PETA either, but the videos are still accurate and sad.
Every time I watch one of those videos I wonder how I support those
industries.
--
Brian
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| Gary & Darlene |
I dislike the cruelty to any animals, but, humans have always
been hunters and gatherers. The greater majority of us eat
meat, a far smaller percentage are vegetarians, with hardly
anyone refusing to wear leather shoes, coats or belts and such.
I have always drawn the line at fur coats, believing an animal
being raised just for it's pelt, the rest is scrap is wrong.
Beef and such, leather is a by-product of food production.
The seal harvest is something that I do believe is a necessary
evil, because the facts have shown without the hunt, with a
total protection of them in force, their numbers do expand
drastically, and could quickly become out of control.
I saw reference to a movie of the hunt, but, we all know
you can take bits and pieces of any subject and produce
a prejudicial presentation that shows just your point of
view. HECK, I could take film clips from any hospital
ER and put together a clip showing how they are nothing
but torture chambers!!! It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
So, I do support it out of need, but, I personally would like
to see a quicker, more humane method of killing be
inforced. Something like a modified .22 rifle that place next
to the skull fires, instantly killing it. This sounds gross, but,
they would not feel a thing and little damage to the fur.
These are just my opinions and do not necessarily reflect those
of the majority of people.
Gary
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| older molly |
Gary & Darlene wrote:
> I dislike the cruelty to any animals, but, humans have always
> been hunters and gatherers. The greater majority of us eat
> meat, a far smaller percentage are vegetarians, with hardly
> anyone refusing to wear leather shoes, coats or belts and such.
> I have always drawn the line at fur coats, believing an animal
> being raised just for it's pelt, the rest is scrap is wrong.
> Beef and such, leather is a by-product of food production.
> The seal harvest is something that I do believe is a necessary
> evil, because the facts have shown without the hunt, with a
> total protection of them in force, their numbers do expand
> drastically, and could quickly become out of control.
>
> I saw reference to a movie of the hunt, but, we all know
> you can take bits and pieces of any subject and produce
> a prejudicial presentation that shows just your point of
> view. HECK, I could take film clips from any hospital
> ER and put together a clip showing how they are nothing
> but torture chambers!!! It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
>
> So, I do support it out of need, but, I personally would like
> to see a quicker, more humane method of killing be
> inforced. Something like a modified .22 rifle that place next
> to the skull fires, instantly killing it. This sounds gross, but,
> they would not feel a thing and little damage to the fur.
>
> These are just my opinions and do not necessarily reflect those
> of the majority of people.
>
> Gary
>
>
Hmm it seems like your government has done a great propoganda job eh.
The *way* these cubs are killed is brutal. Independant witnesses like
greenpeace show pups being skinned whilst still alive dammit. They kill
the babies in front of the mothers eyes for christ sakes. And numbers
will NOT spiral out of control at all. How did they manage fro thousands
of years before humans came along? If this argument , used by the pro
killers of any species, held water, then humans would never have become
the dominant species as everything else would have bred so successfully.
Overfishing on the part of humans with huge drift nets miles long, has
caused the drop in the level of fish in the sea, but typically, the
Canadian government would rather authorise the killing of seal pups by
men smashing their skulls with clubs while they look trustingly up at
them and the mothers, hearts break as they see their babies killed.
I am sick to my stomach at it, and although I know that not all
Canadian people condone this brutality, at the moment I cannot bring
myself to say anything nice about Canada and am actively boycotting
Canadian products as are most of the people I know over here.
Canada, hang your head in shame!
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| older molly |
BRIAN. wrote:
> On 4/15/2004 9:59 PM Lin wrote:
> > I wouldn't be caught *dead* looking at anything the PETA freaks put out. Any
> > organaziation who's tactics include publicly accosting & frightening
> > children at Christmas-time, can go straight to hell, AFAIC.
> >
> > ".BRIAN." <USER@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
> >>
> >>>http://www.peta.org/feat/reality/video.html
>
> I don't like PETA either, but the videos are still accurate and sad.
> Every time I watch one of those videos I wonder how I support those
> industries.
>
>
I dislike Peta, but support greenpeace wholeheartedly. They too have put
out some dreadful vieo evidence. Basically people, all living things
deserve to live free of pain and fear and to be kept in humane
conditions. If you know of an industry which doesn't support these
sentiments, let your money do the persueding. This is how the ordinary
people of Europe and the UK have managed to persuede governments to ban
battery cages for hens, and sow stalls for female pigs. There is a long
long way to go yet before farmed animals are treated properly, but I
believe it will happen in the long run. I *do* eat meat as I believe
that humans need meat in their diet, but I also believe that we all eat
far too much meat which leads to modern factory farming practices, and
obesity and heart disease. We could all do with eating less and better
quality perhaps.
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| .BRIAN. |
On 4/17/2004 10:10 AM, Princebilly1 wrote:
> I watched the PETA video and was pretty shocked i must admit.
>
> Obviously i come from Yorkshire where most farmers could not afford to have
> such an operation to have those death mills but i suppose I have eaten some of
> it from such a place.
>
> I can only say i`m glad i didnt let my kids watch it as i dont think they are
> mature enough to make a rational decision after seeing it.
>
I don't mind killing animals for food, but I too was shocked when
watching those videos. Wendy, my girlfriend, left the room because they
were "horrible".
--
Brian
http://www.mozilla.org/thunderbird
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| Larry C. Lyons |
older molly wrote:
>>
>
> Hmm it seems like your government has done a great propoganda job eh.
> The *way* these cubs are killed is brutal. Independant witnesses like
> greenpeace show pups being skinned whilst still alive dammit. They kill
> the babies in front of the mothers eyes for christ sakes. And numbers
> will NOT spiral out of control at all.
First off Molly, I've been there and seen the seal hunt, both off the
outports and in the high arctic. I've also worked in abattoirs and
slaughter houses. Compared to slaughterhouses, what happens with seals
is merciful.
> How did they manage fro thousands
> of years before humans came along? If this argument , used by the pro
> killers of any species, held water, then humans would never have become
> the dominant species as everything else would have bred so successfully.
In the eastern Arctic the Inuit have been acting as a control element
for quite a long time. Remember human inhabitation in arctic goes back
to about 20,000 to 40,000 years.
> Overfishing on the part of humans with huge drift nets miles long, has
> caused the drop in the level of fish in the sea, but typically, the
> Canadian government would rather authorise the killing of seal pups by
> men smashing their skulls with clubs while they look trustingly up at
> them and the mothers, hearts break as they see their babies killed.
I guess you're not going to be eating any eggs, bacon or beef any time
soon. Or milk or cheese for that matter.
> I am sick to my stomach at it, and although I know that not all
> Canadian people condone this brutality, at the moment I cannot bring
> myself to say anything nice about Canada and am actively boycotting
> Canadian products as are most of the people I know over here.
No more brutal (and in reality quite a lot less) that any slaughter
house, either here in North America or in England. look up how animals
are typically slaughtered. The way the pups killed are no worse that
than, and having read the regulations, a lot more humane.
As I said, have an honest look at yourself and ask yourself, would you
feel quite so strongly about the issue if the seal pups were not so cute?
Does it matter that once the annual cull stopped that the population of
harp seal quintupled in the space of 10 years. This coincided with the
crash of the North Atlantic cod stocks. There have been several studies
that suggest that those two events were not unrelated. Given that the
harp seal is essentially a rat with flippers and will eat nearly
anything that does not give it too much of a fight, its no surprise that
the Atlantic cod is now near extinction. The harp seal population
explosion was enough to nearly push the cod over the edge.
Given this population explosion in the harp seal population and the
sudden crash of one of their prime food sources, what's the option?
Isn't it better to kill a small number now, or watch a substantial part
of the population die of starvation in a few years.
Which is the greater brutality? A very swift painless death for a few or
a long drawn out miserable death of many more.
> Canada, hang your head in shame!
>
Molly I mean no offense by this, but I really think that you are
somewhat ignorant of all the issues involved. I think that your sources
are more than somewhat biased. They are more likely to use propaganda
rather than more objective data. Try looking at some of the serious
research in peer reviewed scientific journals that have examined the
issue. I think that your opinion will change.
regards,
larry
--
Larry C. Lyons
==================================================
======
Life is Complex. It has both real and imaginary parts.
==================================================
======
Chaos, Panic and Disorder. My work here is done.
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| older molly |
Larry C. Lyons wrote:
> older molly wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> > Hmm it seems like your government has done a great propoganda job eh.
> > The *way* these cubs are killed is brutal. Independant witnesses like
> > greenpeace show pups being skinned whilst still alive dammit. They kill
> > the babies in front of the mothers eyes for christ sakes. And numbers
> > will NOT spiral out of control at all.
>
> First off Molly, I've been there and seen the seal hunt, both off the
> outports and in the high arctic. I've also worked in abattoirs and
> slaughter houses. Compared to slaughterhouses, what happens with seals
> is merciful.
>
Well bloody hell your Canadian slaughterhouses must be terrible then. I
too have been to slaughterhouses both here in UK and in Germany where I
lived. I have never seen any animal clubbed as another looks on, nor in
front of its mother who is still suckling it, nor skinned while still
alive.
>
> > How did they manage fro thousands
> > of years before humans came along? If this argument , used by the pro
> > killers of any species, held water, then humans would never have become
> > the dominant species as everything else would have bred so successfully.
>
> In the eastern Arctic the Inuit have been acting as a control element
> for quite a long time. Remember human inhabitation in arctic goes back
> to about 20,000 to 40,000 years.
The inuit hunted what they needed by primitive means, spears eat and
never had the impact that modern seal clubbers do. They never managed to
slaughter the number which get slaughtered today.
>
>
> > Overfishing on the part of humans with huge drift nets miles long, has
> > caused the drop in the level of fish in the sea, but typically, the
> > Canadian government would rather authorise the killing of seal pups by
> > men smashing their skulls with clubs while they look trustingly up at
> > them and the mothers, hearts break as they see their babies killed.
>
> I guess you're not going to be eating any eggs, bacon or beef any time
> soon. Or milk or cheese for that matter.
>
I do indeed eat meat eggs and bacon. I eat the eggs my own free ranging
hens lay, I eat meat and bacon locally and
free range reared where they are allowed to roam in huge fields, build
their own beds from clean straw and breed as natur intended within a
herd and forming their own beds to farrow down in.
I drink goats milk from my friends goats which are also free ranging.
You simply cannot compare humane food production with going to where
seal pups are born, and clubbig them to death in front of suckling
mothers eyes and skinning them whole still alive only to leave the raw
bleeding still warm carcass of her infant for the mother to smell, nose
and grieve over. Dammit, now I am getting bloody angry again. Sodding
Canadian government, a pox on them all.
>
> > I am sick to my stomach at it, and although I know that not all
> > Canadian people condone this brutality, at the moment I cannot bring
> > myself to say anything nice about Canada and am actively boycotting
> > Canadian products as are most of the people I know over here.
>
> No more brutal (and in reality quite a lot less) that any slaughter
> house, either here in North America or in England.
Assuming that you h ave never visited an English slaughterhouse, you
are talking out of your arse chum. Until very recently I produced my own
meat and went to my local slaughterhouse to make sure that my stock was
handled with rescpect and consideration.
> look up how animals
> are typically slaughtered. The way the pups killed are no worse that
> than, and having read the regulations, a lot more humane.
Crap.You don't know what the ferk you are on about.
>
> As I said, have an honest look at yourself and ask yourself, would you
> feel quite so strongly about the issue if the seal pups were not so cute?
Yes I would. I don't find unruly bullocks particularly 'cute' nor
stinking sheep, but every living creature has a *right* to be treated
humanely and die without fear or prolonged pain.
>
> Does it matter that once the annual cull stopped that the population of
> harp seal quintupled in the space of 10 years. This coincided with the
> crash of the North Atlantic cod stocks. There have been several studies
> that suggest that those two events were not unrelated.
So no conclusive evidence exists to show that the seal population was
soley to blame for the drop in cod stocks? Nothing to do with drift
nets, overfishing or pollution??
Of course it is easier for the Canadian government to blame the seals
that to say to their fishing fleet, I'm afraid you have been greedy, you
need to be catching less cod, or none at all under a certain size?
> Given that the
> harp seal is essentially a rat with flippers and will eat nearly
> anything that does not give it too much of a fight, its no surprise that
> the Atlantic cod is now near extinction.
So if cod stocks are scarce, and the Harp seal will eat anything, why
are you blaming it for targetting only cod? If they eat anything, it
seems inlikely that they will be soley to blame for dwindling cod
stocks.
Incidentally cod stocks around British waters are dwindling too, but we
have no huge seal population. What do suppose is causing that?
>The harp seal population
> explosion was enough to nearly push the cod over the edge.
Government propaganda again.
>
> Given this population explosion in the harp seal population and the
> sudden crash of one of their prime food sources, what's the option?
> Isn't it better to kill a small number now, or watch a substantial part
> of the population die of starvation in a few years.
But you have already said thei will eat anything. This being the case,
if the cod disappeared altogether, they would *not* starve to death at
all.
Please decide which set of propogana fictions you want to believe in
and stick to them instead of getting yourself all caught up saying one
thing, then contradicting yourself.
>
> Which is the greater brutality? A very swift painless death for a few or
> a long drawn out miserable death of many more.
>
This is not relevant.
>
> > Canada, hang your head in shame!
> >
>
> Molly I mean no offense by this, but I really think that you are
> somewhat ignorant of all the issues involved. I think that your sources
> are more than somewhat biased. They are more likely to use propaganda
> rather than more objective data. Try looking at some of the serious
> research in peer reviewed scientific journals that have examined the
> issue. I think that your opinion will change.
I have seen video footage of what happens, I have seen photographs and
read eye witness accounts. Then I have read your flawed arguments. I
don't need to read scientific journals paid for by the Canadian
government to know what is right and what is not.
I spit in the eye of the Canadian government.
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| Tristan Miller |
Greetings.
In article <c60g470104f@enews4.newsguy.com>, older molly wrote:
> Well bloody hell your Canadian slaughterhouses must be terrible then. I
> too have been to slaughterhouses both here in UK and in Germany where I
> lived. I have never seen any animal clubbed as another looks on, nor in
> front of its mother who is still suckling it, nor skinned while still
> alive.
My... do you mean to say that slaughtering practices vary from country to
country, or even from slaughterhouse to slaughterhouse? By that logic,
surely it's possible that whatever evidence you saw of inhumane seal
killings was representative of only a tiny minority of hunters, and was
being misleadingly propagandized for its shock value to discredit an
entire industry.
> I have seen video footage of what happens, I have seen photographs and
> read eye witness accounts.
You seem to be rather selective in what you read if you're so quick to
dismiss Larry's eyewitness accounts. Could it be that you're simply
ignoring the negative evidence and focussing on a minority of brutal
cases? I have seen video and photos as well depicted barbaric acts of
cruelty against seals, but I have no way of knowing if this is the norm.
Personally, I have no opinion on the seal trade and killing methods as I
consider myself largely ignorant of the affair. Only if and when I learn
what proportion of hunters use inhumane methods, and whether or not such
methods are formally or tacitly tolerated by the government, will I deign
to speak on the matter.
Regards,
Tristan
--
_
_V.-o Tristan Miller [en,(fr,de,ia)] >< Space is limited
/ |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <> In a haiku, so it's hard
(7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ >< To finish what you
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| Larry C. Lyons |
Its unfortunate that you feel that way. Its also unfortunate that you're
not willing to look at the results of scientific, dismissing it as
propaganda.
Since there is no communicating past your bias and prejudice, as far as
I can see this conversation is over.
older molly wrote:
> Larry C. Lyons wrote:
>
>
>>older molly wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hmm it seems like your government has done a great propoganda job eh.
>>>The *way* these cubs are killed is brutal. Independant witnesses like
>>>greenpeace show pups being skinned whilst still alive dammit. They kill
>>>the babies in front of the mothers eyes for christ sakes. And numbers
>>>will NOT spiral out of control at all.
>>
>>First off Molly, I've been there and seen the seal hunt, both off the
>>outports and in the high arctic. I've also worked in abattoirs and
>>slaughter houses. Compared to slaughterhouses, what happens with seals
>>is merciful.
>>
>
> Well bloody hell your Canadian slaughterhouses must be terrible then. I
> too have been to slaughterhouses both here in UK and in Germany where I
> lived. I have never seen any animal clubbed as another looks on, nor in
> front of its mother who is still suckling it, nor skinned while still
> alive.
>
>>>How did they manage fro thousands
>>>of years before humans came along? If this argument , used by the pro
>>>killers of any species, held water, then humans would never have become
>>>the dominant species as everything else would have bred so successfully.
>>
>>In the eastern Arctic the Inuit have been acting as a control element
>>for quite a long time. Remember human inhabitation in arctic goes back
>>to about 20,000 to 40,000 years.
>
> The inuit hunted what they needed by primitive means, spears eat and
> never had the impact that modern seal clubbers do. They never managed to
> slaughter the number which get slaughtered today.
>
>>
>>> Overfishing on the part of humans with huge drift nets miles long, has
>>>caused the drop in the level of fish in the sea, but typically, the
>>>Canadian government would rather authorise the killing of seal pups by
>>>men smashing their skulls with clubs while they look trustingly up at
>>>them and the mothers, hearts break as they see their babies killed.
>>
>>I guess you're not going to be eating any eggs, bacon or beef any time
>>soon. Or milk or cheese for that matter.
>>
>
> I do indeed eat meat eggs and bacon. I eat the eggs my own free ranging
> hens lay, I eat meat and bacon locally and
> free range reared where they are allowed to roam in huge fields, build
> their own beds from clean straw and breed as natur intended within a
> herd and forming their own beds to farrow down in.
> I drink goats milk from my friends goats which are also free ranging.
> You simply cannot compare humane food production with going to where
> seal pups are born, and clubbig them to death in front of suckling
> mothers eyes and skinning them whole still alive only to leave the raw
> bleeding still warm carcass of her infant for the mother to smell, nose
> and grieve over. Dammit, now I am getting bloody angry again. Sodding
> Canadian government, a pox on them all.
>
>
>>> I am sick to my stomach at it, and although I know that not all
>>>Canadian people condone this brutality, at the moment I cannot bring
>>>myself to say anything nice about Canada and am actively boycotting
>>>Canadian products as are most of the people I know over here.
>>
>>No more brutal (and in reality quite a lot less) that any slaughter
>>house, either here in North America or in England.
>
> Assuming that you h ave never visited an English slaughterhouse, you
> are talking out of your arse chum. Until very recently I produced my own
> meat and went to my local slaughterhouse to make sure that my stock was
> handled with rescpect and consideration.
>
>>look up how animals
>>are typically slaughtered. The way the pups killed are no worse that
>>than, and having read the regulations, a lot more humane.
>
> Crap.You don't know what the ferk you are on about.
>
>>As I said, have an honest look at yourself and ask yourself, would you
>>feel quite so strongly about the issue if the seal pups were not so cute?
>
> Yes I would. I don't find unruly bullocks particularly 'cute' nor
> stinking sheep, but every living creature has a *right* to be treated
> humanely and die without fear or prolonged pain.
>
>>Does it matter that once the annual cull stopped that the population of
>>harp seal quintupled in the space of 10 years. This coincided with the
>>crash of the North Atlantic cod stocks. There have been several studies
>>that suggest that those two events were not unrelated.
>
> So no conclusive evidence exists to show that the seal population was
> soley to blame for the drop in cod stocks? Nothing to do with drift
> nets, overfishing or pollution??
> Of course it is easier for the Canadian government to blame the seals
> that to say to their fishing fleet, I'm afraid you have been greedy, you
> need to be catching less cod, or none at all under a certain size?
>
>
>>Given that the
>>harp seal is essentially a rat with flippers and will eat nearly
>>anything that does not give it too much of a fight, its no surprise that
>>the Atlantic cod is now near extinction.
>
> So if cod stocks are scarce, and the Harp seal will eat anything, why
> are you blaming it for targetting only cod? If they eat anything, it
> seems inlikely that they will be soley to blame for dwindling cod
> stocks.
> Incidentally cod stocks around British waters are dwindling too, but we
> have no huge seal population. What do suppose is causing that?
>
>>The harp seal population
>>explosion was enough to nearly push the cod over the edge.
>
> Government propaganda again.
>
>>Given this population explosion in the harp seal population and the
>>sudden crash of one of their prime food sources, what's the option?
>>Isn't it better to kill a small number now, or watch a substantial part
>>of the population die of starvation in a few years.
>
> But you have already said thei will eat anything. This being the case,
> if the cod disappeared altogether, they would *not* starve to death at
> all.
> Please decide which set of propogana fictions you want to believe in
> and stick to them instead of getting yourself all caught up saying one
> thing, then contradicting yourself.
>
>>Which is the greater brutality? A very swift painless death for a few or
>> a long drawn out miserable death of many more.
>>
>
> This is not relevant.
>
>>> Canada, hang your head in shame!
>>>
>>
>>Molly I mean no offense by this, but I really think that you are
>>somewhat ignorant of all the issues involved. I think that your sources
>>are more than somewhat biased. They are more likely to use propaganda
>>rather than more objective data. Try looking at some of the serious
>>research in peer reviewed scientific journals that have examined the
>>issue. I think that your opinion will change.
>
> I have seen video footage of what happens, I have seen photographs and
> read eye witness accounts. Then I have read your flawed arguments. I
> don't need to read scientific journals paid for by the Canadian
> government to know what is right and what is not.
> I spit in the eye of the Canadian government.
--
Larry C. Lyons
==================================================
======
Life is Complex. It has both real and imaginary parts.
==================================================
======
Chaos, Panic and Disorder. My work here is done.
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