| | Archive > Pet newsgroups > rec.pets.dogs.breeds Looking for good breeders of German Shepherd Dog - CLICK HERE for the Pet Manual Forum Home Page CC45 I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer satisfaction for its puppies. I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments about them? I provide their websites below: fleischerheim.com goldbergshepherds.com kirchenwald.com jerland.com/shepherds/index.html www.hausbrezel.com www.kolendakennels.com Tracy Doyle CC45 wrote: > > I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from > a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed > questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders > as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with > a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog > shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation > required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be > established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer > satisfaction for its puppies. > > I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments > about them? I provide their websites below: [snipped list] Greetings... Can't help you vet your list, but my word of advice would be - be very careful about breeders who advertize in magazines, especially if they take out huge full-color ads. Too many of them have turned out to be puppy millers. I suggest you start your search by calling your local branch GSD club. Go to some dog shows and meet the breeders. You'll see different styles and looks, and if you meet the dogs you'll also find a range of temperaments. When you see one you like, talk to the breeder. Get pedigrees and try to get a feel for what bloodlines you like. Find some email lists for dogs (Yahoo groups probably has a bunch: http://groups.yahoo.com/ ). Take your time and do your research, and I'm sure you'll find that "just right" puppy! Kind Regards, Tracy CC45 On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 21:38:16 GMT, Tracy Doyle <tracy@unspam.rag-time.com> wrote: > > >CC45 wrote: >> >> I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from >> a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed >> questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders >> as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with >> a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog >> shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation >> required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be >> established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer >> satisfaction for its puppies. >> >> I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments >> about them? I provide their websites below: > >[snipped list] > >Greetings... > >Can't help you vet your list, but my word of advice would be - be very >careful about breeders who advertize in magazines, especially if they >take out huge full-color ads. Too many of them have turned out to be >puppy millers. > >I suggest you start your search by calling your local branch GSD club. >Go to some dog shows and meet the breeders. You'll see different styles >and looks, and if you meet the dogs you'll also find a range of >temperaments. When you see one you like, talk to the breeder. Get >pedigrees and try to get a feel for what bloodlines you like. Find some >email lists for dogs (Yahoo groups probably has a bunch: >http://groups.yahoo.com/ ). Take your time and do your research, and I'm >sure you'll find that "just right" puppy! > >Kind Regards, > This is not a very good approach for me. I live in an area with not that many dog shows. I went to one show recently, the dogs were just average. More importantly, most of the people were busy taking care of their dogs. it is akward to approach *many* people at the dogs shows. The keyword is many. I do not select from a small sample. I have to have a large sample to work with. My strategy is to choose from a *large* sample/list and to speed up the selection process by calling them directly. To do the same on the dogs shows is not going to work. The only way is to get the long list that meets my general reqs, start calling them and select through elimination process. As far as yahoo groups, i will get there too. Let's finish with these newsgroups first. Sue I don't have GSDs but I would not be prepared to let a top show potential puppy go to a pet home. I think what you want is a near miss -a pup bred for show that isn't quite a ch prospect. Often you wouldn't know the difference and an also ran from a good breeder is probably far better than show potential fron some breeders. Have you contacted the shepherd clubs? Sue "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e32fd.268021609@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > > I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from > a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed > questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders > as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with > a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog > shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation > required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be > established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer > satisfaction for its puppies. CC45 On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:35:03 +0000 (UTC), "Sue" <nospamback@btinternet.com> wrote: >I don't have GSDs but I would not be prepared to let a top show potential >puppy go to a pet home. >I think what you want is a near miss -a pup bred for show that isn't quite a >ch prospect. Often you wouldn't know the difference and an also ran from a >good breeder is probably far better than show potential fron some breeders. >Have you contacted the shepherd clubs? >Sue > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments are just a waste of time. There are plenty of books that already include cute advices and general comments and I do not need them here. This is a specific inquiry asking for specific responses. >"CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message >news:404e32fd.268021609@news-server.cfl.rr.com... >> >> I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from >> a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed >> questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders >> as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with >> a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog >> shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation >> required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be >> established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer >> satisfaction for its puppies. > > Scott I am just curious: Why do you want show lines and not working lines? CC45 wrote: >I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from >a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed >questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders >as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with >a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog >shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation >required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be >established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer >satisfaction for its puppies. > >I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments >about them? I provide their websites below: > >fleischerheim.com >goldbergshepherds.com >kirchenwald.com >jerland.com/shepherds/index.html >www.hausbrezel.com >www.kolendakennels.com > > > > > The Puppy Wizard So they can have a workin dog just like yours. "Scott" <scotty@2extremes.nett> wrote in message news:404E4D85.401@2extremes.nett... > I am just curious: Why do you want show lines and not working lines? > > CC45 wrote: > > >I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from > >a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed > >questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders > >as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with > >a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog > >shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation > >required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be > >established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer > >satisfaction for its puppies. > > > >I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments > >about them? I provide their websites below: > > > >fleischerheim.com > >goldbergshepherds.com > >kirchenwald.com > >jerland.com/shepherds/index.html > >www.hausbrezel.com > >www.kolendakennels.com > > > > > > > > > > > CC45 On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:04:37 -0800, Scott <scotty@2extremes.nett> wrote: >I am just curious: Why do you want show lines and not working lines? > I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. >CC45 wrote: > >>I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from >>a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed >>questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders >>as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with >>a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog >>shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation >>required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be >>established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer >>satisfaction for its puppies. >> >>I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments >>about them? I provide their websites below: >> >>fleischerheim.com >>goldbergshepherds.com >>kirchenwald.com >>jerland.com/shepherds/index.html >>www.hausbrezel.com >>www.kolendakennels.com >> >> >> >> >> > culprit "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e47e0.273369125@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. > This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked > only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general > reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments > are just a waste of time. There are plenty of books that already > include cute advices and general comments and I do not need them here. > This is a specific inquiry asking for specific responses. hey CC45, this is a discussion group, so you're going to have to put up with a far amount of discussion if you want to learn anything here. this isn't a QA board where experts answer only the question you decide to ask. you're going to have to sort the responses you want from the responses you don't want, so you might as well be nice about it. also, a lot of people read this group looking for advice that may have already been given. so a lot of the more informed posters will want to answer your request completely, so that other readers can learn something from it. if you don't like the "cute advices", you certainly don't have to follow them. -kelly CC45 On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 23:45:06 GMT, CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote: >On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:04:37 -0800, Scott <scotty@2extremes.nett> >wrote: > >>I am just curious: Why do you want show lines and not working lines? >> > > I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many > pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise > meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, >inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience > training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working >line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter > of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. > > Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...%2012-16-03.jpg This one would make my list as fas as the looks. Sunflower "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e47e0.273369125@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:35:03 +0000 (UTC), "Sue" > <nospamback@btinternet.com> wrote: > > >I don't have GSDs but I would not be prepared to let a top show potential > >puppy go to a pet home. > >I think what you want is a near miss -a pup bred for show that isn't quite a > >ch prospect. Often you wouldn't know the difference and an also ran from a > >good breeder is probably far better than show potential fron some breeders. > >Have you contacted the shepherd clubs? > >Sue > > > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. > This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked > only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general > reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments > are just a waste of time. There are plenty of books that already > include cute advices and general comments and I do not need them here. > This is a specific inquiry asking for specific responses. > > You know, if you're this arrogant with a reptuable breeder, they'll rightly send you packing. You obviously do not know enough about GSD's to consider owning a show prospect, and the real breeders will pick up on this right away. They won't even sell you a pet quality puppy. Puppy millers and backyard breeders will sell you just any old thing because all they will care about is making a buck. And, you won't be able to tell the difference. All you seem to care about is whether or not they have a website to make it easy for you to find a dog. Finding a good dog should NOT be easy, if you really want a high quality dog. You'll need to travel to kennels all over the place and to shows all over the place. And, that's just for the education you'll need and the contacts that are available there. When you know enough and have enough contacts in the breed club, only then will you learn of potential pairings down the road that *might* lead to the dog you're in search of. No reputable breeder breeds a litter unless they have all of the pups spoken for in advance, and if you learn enough and curb that arrogant and insulting behavior, you just might be lucky enough to get a dog that fits your "requirements" within the next year or two. Christy "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > > I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many > > pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise > > meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, > >inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience > > training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working > >line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter > > of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. > > > > > Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example > > http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...m%20side%2012-1 6-03.jpg > > This one would make my list as fas as the looks. > You won't find the kind of dog you are looking for unless you are very specific with your requirements. When you say "show potential GSD" you bring to mind a very different type of dog than the example provided (which to my eye is a very unattractive GSD, especially the head.) However a working line GSD is likely to be a very difficult dog for the average owner, especially if you don't plan to work with the dog. You may find a low drive dog from a working breeder, however. I second the advice from the poster who said to avoid the pet dog magazine ads - anyone who can afford to regularly advertise in those publications is probably breeding far too many dogs and charging huge amounts in order to pay for those ads. Better to seek out the publications of the fancy - either the show world or the working dog world - as well as the breed clubs. Since you probably will ignore all of the above anyway, I'll give you one breeder that may suit your demands. I know nothing more about this breeder than an acquaintance acquired a puppy from them and she is very pleased with her ("Raven" on the satisfied customers page.) You'll have to do further research on your own. http://www.vonfalconer.com/index.html Christy CC45 On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:17:05 GMT, "Christy" <easily.amused@gtenospam.net> wrote: > >"CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message >news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > >> > I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many >> > pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise >> > meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, >> >inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience >> > training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working >> >line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter >> > of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. >> > >> > >> Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example >> >> >http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...m%20side%2012-1 >6-03.jpg >> >> This one would make my list as fas as the looks. >> > >You won't find the kind of dog you are looking for unless you are very >specific with your requirements. When you say "show potential GSD" you bring >to mind a very different type of dog than the example provided (which to my >eye is a very unattractive GSD, especially the head.) >However a working line GSD is likely to be a very difficult dog for the >average owner, especially if you don't plan to work with the dog. You may >find a low drive dog from a working breeder, however. >I second the advice from the poster who said to avoid the pet dog magazine >ads - anyone who can afford to regularly advertise in those publications is >probably breeding far too many dogs and charging huge amounts in order to >pay for those ads. Better to seek out the publications of the fancy - either >the show world or the working dog world - as well as the breed clubs. >Since you probably will ignore all of the above anyway, I'll give you one >breeder that may suit your demands. I know nothing more about this breeder >than an acquaintance acquired a puppy from them and she is very pleased with >her ("Raven" on the satisfied customers page.) You'll have to do further >research on your own. >http://www.vonfalconer.com/index.html > >Christy > > Thanks for the name of one breeder. As far as the rest of your response, you are making too many false assumptions that even lack any logic. In my original post, I provided very generic reqs using loose terminology. You suddenly adhered to your *own* meaning of every term as if it were a gospel and confused it with a request to find me a dog. I did not ask to find anything. I just asked you to provide THE NAME OF ANY BREEDER that meets the very basic reqs. I did not ask you to disect every term. If you misunderstood any term and you provided a wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET ANY FAILING GRADE. badgirl "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. > This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked > only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general > reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments > are just a waste of time. There are plenty of books that already > include cute advices and general comments and I do not need them here. > This is a specific inquiry asking for specific responses. > Don't be such a prick Leslie Weinberg Be VERY careful. I had four GSDs which were wonderful and then I got #5, from not only a reputable breeder here in NY, but a well-known and well regarded specialty JUDGE. The dog was not let go till four months of age due to his wanting to make sure the dog was NOT show potential, and he was so vicious we worked with him for two years before we threw in the towel and let the trainer take him. After several trips to the breeder during that time, begging him to take the dog back - no refund, no replacement, just "please" take him, we found that all his litters were isolated in runs and he did not want anyone near them - they were not socialized, they were not handled. With a dog like a GSD, as well as all others, you need to handle and socialize pups or you will not have one you want to live with. You need to not only check out reputation, but go to the kennels and see how the dogs are being raised. CC45 wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:17:05 GMT, "Christy" > <easily.amused@gtenospam.net> wrote: > > >>"CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message >>news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com... >> >> >>>>I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many >>>>pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise >>>>meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, >>>>inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience >>>>training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working >>>>line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter >>>>of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example >>> >>> >> >>http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...m%20side%2012-1 >>6-03.jpg >> >>>This one would make my list as fas as the looks. >>> >> >>You won't find the kind of dog you are looking for unless you are very >>specific with your requirements. When you say "show potential GSD" you bring >>to mind a very different type of dog than the example provided (which to my >>eye is a very unattractive GSD, especially the head.) >>However a working line GSD is likely to be a very difficult dog for the >>average owner, especially if you don't plan to work with the dog. You may >>find a low drive dog from a working breeder, however. >>I second the advice from the poster who said to avoid the pet dog magazine >>ads - anyone who can afford to regularly advertise in those publications is >>probably breeding far too many dogs and charging huge amounts in order to >>pay for those ads. Better to seek out the publications of the fancy - either >>the show world or the working dog world - as well as the breed clubs. >>Since you probably will ignore all of the above anyway, I'll give you one >>breeder that may suit your demands. I know nothing more about this breeder >>than an acquaintance acquired a puppy from them and she is very pleased with >>her ("Raven" on the satisfied customers page.) You'll have to do further >>research on your own. >>http://www.vonfalconer.com/index.html >> >>Christy >> >> > > Thanks for the name of one breeder. As far as the rest of your > response, you are making too many false assumptions that even lack > any logic. In my original post, I provided very generic reqs using > loose terminology. You suddenly adhered to your *own* meaning of every > term as if it were a gospel and confused it with a request to find me > a dog. I did not ask to find anything. I just asked you to provide THE > NAME OF ANY BREEDER that meets the very basic reqs. I did not ask you > to disect every term. If you misunderstood any term and you provided a > > wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET > ANY FAILING GRADE. > Scott CC45 wrote: > > > I do not want to get into semantics here. > It is not a question of semantics. Have you ever seen grown German shepherd show dogs (and I use the term German shepherd loosely)? They appear to be crippled. Stupid breeders! > By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, >inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience > training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. > You mean working bloodline German shepherd dogs that meet the breed standard. > Working >line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter > of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. > If you like the "working" dog look, do yourself a big favor and buy a real German shepherd dog, not a poor crippled show dog. > > >>CC45 wrote: >> >> >> >>>I want to get a German Shepherd pup/dog (2-6 months old) from >>>a reputable breeder. I will call the breeders and ask more detailed >>>questions directly. But here I just want to collect as many breeders >>>as possible. The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with >>>a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog >>>shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation >>>required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be >>>established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer >>>satisfaction for its puppies. >>> >>>I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments >>>about them? I provide their websites below: >>> >>>fleischerheim.com >>>goldbergshepherds.com >>>kirchenwald.com >>>jerland.com/shepherds/index.html >>>www.hausbrezel.com >>>www.kolendakennels.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > Scott CC45 wrote: > > > If you misunderstood any term and you provided a > >wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET >ANY FAILING GRADE. > > > http://www.truehaus.com/ http://leerburg.com/table.htm http://www.k9kamp.com/index.php CC45 On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:44:48 GMT, Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> wrote: >Be VERY careful. I had four GSDs which were wonderful and then I got #5, >from not only a reputable breeder here in NY, but a well-known and well >regarded specialty JUDGE. The dog was not let go till four months of >age due to his wanting to make sure the dog was NOT show potential, and >he was so vicious we worked with him for two years before we threw in >the towel and let the trainer take him. After several trips to the >breeder during that time, begging him to take the dog back - no refund, >no replacement, just "please" take him, we found that all his litters >were isolated in runs and he did not want anyone near them - they were >not socialized, they were not handled. With a dog like a GSD, as well >as all others, you need to handle and socialize pups or you will not >have one you want to live with. You need to not only check out >reputation, but go to the kennels and see how the dogs are being raised. > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the names of breeders and some comments about specific breeders. Nothing else. I collect the lists from a variety of sources: magazines, different discussion groups, various dog clubs, etc. The key is variety, not just one source but many. Nothing else. I do not want to discuss how a breeder will be selected because this is WELL BEYOND THE SCOPE of this post. For your information, the dog will be my close companion for the next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER will sell me a crappy pup. Early on, each contacted breeder will get ONE THING STRAIGHT - if he lies to me then a lot of bad things may happen to him. In reality, those who lie are too stupid to pass my investigation early on so they will not even get through initial screening anyway. >CC45 wrote: >> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:17:05 GMT, "Christy" >> <easily.amused@gtenospam.net> wrote: >> >> >>>"CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message >>>news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com... >>> >>> >>>>>I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many >>>>>pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise >>>>>meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, >>>>>inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience >>>>>training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working >>>>>line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter >>>>>of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example >>>> >>>> >>> >>>http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...m%20side%2012-1 >>>6-03.jpg >>> >>>>This one would make my list as fas as the looks. >>>> >>> >>>You won't find the kind of dog you are looking for unless you are very >>>specific with your requirements. When you say "show potential GSD" you bring >>>to mind a very different type of dog than the example provided (which to my >>>eye is a very unattractive GSD, especially the head.) >>>However a working line GSD is likely to be a very difficult dog for the >>>average owner, especially if you don't plan to work with the dog. You may >>>find a low drive dog from a working breeder, however. >>>I second the advice from the poster who said to avoid the pet dog magazine >>>ads - anyone who can afford to regularly advertise in those publications is >>>probably breeding far too many dogs and charging huge amounts in order to >>>pay for those ads. Better to seek out the publications of the fancy - either >>>the show world or the working dog world - as well as the breed clubs. >>>Since you probably will ignore all of the above anyway, I'll give you one >>>breeder that may suit your demands. I know nothing more about this breeder >>>than an acquaintance acquired a puppy from them and she is very pleased with >>>her ("Raven" on the satisfied customers page.) You'll have to do further >>>research on your own. >>>http://www.vonfalconer.com/index.html >>> >>>Christy >>> >>> >> >> Thanks for the name of one breeder. As far as the rest of your >> response, you are making too many false assumptions that even lack >> any logic. In my original post, I provided very generic reqs using >> loose terminology. You suddenly adhered to your *own* meaning of every >> term as if it were a gospel and confused it with a request to find me >> a dog. I did not ask to find anything. I just asked you to provide THE >> NAME OF ANY BREEDER that meets the very basic reqs. I did not ask you >> to disect every term. If you misunderstood any term and you provided a >> >> wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET >> ANY FAILING GRADE. >> > Christy "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e6df0.283113062@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > Thanks for the name of one breeder. As far as the rest of your > response, you are making too many false assumptions that even lack > any logic. In my original post, I provided very generic reqs using > loose terminology. You suddenly adhered to your *own* meaning of every > term as if it were a gospel and confused it with a request to find me > a dog. I did not ask to find anything. I just asked you to provide THE > NAME OF ANY BREEDER that meets the very basic reqs. I did not ask you > to disect every term. If you misunderstood any term and you provided a > > wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET > ANY FAILING GRADE. > You've misunderstood. I was not worried, at all, about you, or whether you knew what you were doing and what you wanted (as it was clear that you did not.) I posted what I did on the off chance that someone out there, who was educable, would find it of interest. You've already been written off as ignorant by choice. Christy Rocky CC45 said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds: > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the > names of > breeders and some comments about specific breeders. > Nothing else. Michael? Is that you? -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. culprit "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e7a06.286206890@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the names of > breeders and some comments about specific breeders. Nothing else. > I collect the lists from a variety of sources: magazines, different > discussion groups, various dog clubs, etc. The key is variety, not > just one source but many. Nothing else. I do not want to discuss how > a breeder will be selected because this is WELL BEYOND THE SCOPE > of this post. For your information, the dog will be my close > companion for the next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER > will sell me a crappy pup. Early on, each contacted breeder will get > ONE THING STRAIGHT - if he lies to me then a lot of bad things may > happen to him. In reality, those who lie are too stupid to pass my > investigation early on so they will not even get through initial > screening anyway. hi, welcome to Usenet. here are some suggestions. it's usually not a good idea to make threats against people, even in theory, these words are archived and may come back to haunt you. for example, if one of the breeders you're interested in is reading this, i'd bet they'd stay far away from you. you come across as violent and impatient. not exactly good puppy home material. this is a discussion group. for public discussion. so basically we'll talk about whatever the hell we want, regardless of what questions you ask. don't like it? feel free to leave. HTH!!! -kelly dianne marie schoenberg CC45 <CC45@noname1.com> wrote: > For your information, the dog will be my close companion for the > next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER will sell me a crappy > pup. Au contraire. Based on what you've posted here, no breeder will sell you a decent one--and the BYBs out there are rubbing their hands together with dollar signs in their eyes because you clearly don't know enough to tell the difference. Dianne Emily Carroll You know, you might be happier having this discussion with a website called Google. It's at http://www.google.com There's this little itty box. You type in what you want. For example, you're looking for German Shepherd breeders. So you would type in "German Shepherd Breeders" in the little box. If that's too difficult for you, you might even copy and paste what I wrote. And if Google talks back too badly, you might try Lycos, AltaVista, Yahoo, or Dogpile. -- Emily Carroll Fluttervale Labradors: www.fluttervale.com CPG: www.geocities.com/cyberpetgame/ "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message news:404e7a06.286206890@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:44:48 GMT, Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> > wrote: > > >Be VERY careful. I had four GSDs which were wonderful and then I got #5, > >from not only a reputable breeder here in NY, but a well-known and well > >regarded specialty JUDGE. The dog was not let go till four months of > >age due to his wanting to make sure the dog was NOT show potential, and > >he was so vicious we worked with him for two years before we threw in > >the towel and let the trainer take him. After several trips to the > >breeder during that time, begging him to take the dog back - no refund, > >no replacement, just "please" take him, we found that all his litters > >were isolated in runs and he did not want anyone near them - they were > >not socialized, they were not handled. With a dog like a GSD, as well > >as all others, you need to handle and socialize pups or you will not > >have one you want to live with. You need to not only check out > >reputation, but go to the kennels and see how the dogs are being raised. > > > > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the names of > breeders and some comments about specific breeders. Nothing else. > I collect the lists from a variety of sources: magazines, different > discussion groups, various dog clubs, etc. The key is variety, not > just one source but many. Nothing else. I do not want to discuss how > a breeder will be selected because this is WELL BEYOND THE SCOPE > of this post. For your information, the dog will be my close > companion for the next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER > will sell me a crappy pup. Early on, each contacted breeder will get > ONE THING STRAIGHT - if he lies to me then a lot of bad things may > happen to him. In reality, those who lie are too stupid to pass my > investigation early on so they will not even get through initial > screening anyway. > > > > >CC45 wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:17:05 GMT, "Christy" > >> <easily.amused@gtenospam.net> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>"CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message > >>>news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > >>> > >>> > >>>>>I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many > >>>>>pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise > >>>>>meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, > >>>>>inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience > >>>>>training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working > >>>>>line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter > >>>>>of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...heim%20side%201 2-1 > >>>6-03.jpg > >>> > >>>>This one would make my list as fas as the looks. > >>>> > >>> > >>>You won't find the kind of dog you are looking for unless you are very > >>>specific with your requirements. When you say "show potential GSD" you bring > >>>to mind a very different type of dog than the example provided (which to my > >>>eye is a very unattractive GSD, especially the head.) > >>>However a working line GSD is likely to be a very difficult dog for the > >>>average owner, especially if you don't plan to work with the dog. You may > >>>find a low drive dog from a working breeder, however. > >>>I second the advice from the poster who said to avoid the pet dog magazine > >>>ads - anyone who can afford to regularly advertise in those publications is > >>>probably breeding far too many dogs and charging huge amounts in order to > >>>pay for those ads. Better to seek out the publications of the fancy - either > >>>the show world or the working dog world - as well as the breed clubs. > >>>Since you probably will ignore all of the above anyway, I'll give you one > >>>breeder that may suit your demands. I know nothing more about this breeder > >>>than an acquaintance acquired a puppy from them and she is very pleased with > >>>her ("Raven" on the satisfied customers page.) You'll have to do further > >>>research on your own. > >>>http://www.vonfalconer.com/index.html > >>> > >>>Christy > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Thanks for the name of one breeder. As far as the rest of your > >> response, you are making too many false assumptions that even lack > >> any logic. In my original post, I provided very generic reqs using > >> loose terminology. You suddenly adhered to your *own* meaning of every > >> term as if it were a gospel and confused it with a request to find me > >> a dog. I did not ask to find anything. I just asked you to provide THE > >> NAME OF ANY BREEDER that meets the very basic reqs. I did not ask you > >> to disect every term. If you misunderstood any term and you provided a > >> > >> wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET > >> ANY FAILING GRADE. > >> > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 2/25/2004 Scott CC45 wrote: >> >> >> > Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example > >http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...%2012-16-03.jpg > >This one would make my list as fas as the looks. > > > > I may be mistaken, but I believe that particular color combination and pattern, black and red with a rather small saddle, is sought after by those who show their dogs. Not that it isn't possible to find a working bloodline dog that looks like that, but I don't think it is likely. Working bloodline German shepherds tend to be sable, black and tan with a large blanket instead of small saddle, or black. I am sure colors vary, that is just what I have seen--for what that is worth. KWBrown CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in news:404e7a06.286206890@news-server.cfl.rr.com: > For your information, the dog will be my close > companion for the next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER > will sell me a crappy pup. Early on, each contacted breeder will get > ONE THING STRAIGHT - if he lies to me then a lot of bad things may > happen to him. In reality, those who lie are too stupid to pass my > investigation early on so they will not even get through initial > screening anyway. At the rate you're going, guy, there's no way ANY BREEDER will sell you ANY PUP. -- Kate Storm the FCR Remove spamblock to email, and let me know because this account is heavily filtered. Lynn K. CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in message news:<404e32fd.268021609@news-server.cfl.rr.com>... > The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with > a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog > shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation > required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be > established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer > satisfaction for its puppies. Okay, you need to get a little clearer about what you're looking for. When you say "show", are you talking about AKC, SV, or FCI? Different dogs are going to be show potential for the different venues. From the breeders you've listed, I'm guessing you're talking about SV, and high lines rather than working lines. All puppies should be free of diseases, of course, but what I think you really mean is pups from parents tested for genetic diseases, which has nothing to do with a vet evaluation of the pup. Here again, you need to learn about "a" stamps vs. OFA ratings. I gather you're looking at GSD Quarterly or similar mags. To evaluate the ads you're reading, you need to learn how to read a Breed Survey. Those blurbs you're seeing under stud and litter announcements have very specific language judges use when evaluating a dog for breeding and you need to know what the terms mean. You also need to adjust your expectations a bit. Rather than thinking about a 2-6 month old pup, think about getting on a waiting list for a planned breeding. Many good breedings are fully reserved long before the puppies are whelped. You also need to revisit the idea of a show potential pup if you don't intend to show. It isn't just a matter of the price differential - there's no incentive for a breeder to sell a pup that could enhance their reputation into a home where he/she won't be shown. > I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments > about them? I provide their websites below: > > fleischerheim.com > goldbergshepherds.com > kirchenwald.com > jerland.com/shepherds/index.html > www.hausbrezel.com > www.kolendakennels.com Of those choices, my top choice would be Kirchenwald, assuming that what you are indeed looking for is German show lines. But it would be helpful to know where you are located to give you recommendations that you can more easily investigate in person. For example, Kirchenwald is great if you're in PA, but if you're in CA you'd be better off looking at someone like www.valkyre.com. You need to do some local, in depth work. Of the kennel websites you listed, there is a huge difference in type, reputation, and operation. And no, I'm not about to tell you which ones I dislike in a public newsgroup - I have to live in the GSD world. You'll have to dig a little deeper on your own. Lynn K. Leslie Weinberg I'm just curious. What would you list as acceptable in New York???? Lynn K. wrote: > CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in message news:<404e32fd.268021609@news-server.cfl.rr.com>... > > >> The general reqs for the dog: black and red color, with >>a show potential even though I do not plan to participate in any dog >>shows, obviously free of any diseases (complete vet evaluation >>required), preferably a German line. The breeder has to be >>established, i.e. both in terms of show participation and customer >>satisfaction for its puppies. > > > Okay, you need to get a little clearer about what you're looking for. > When you say "show", are you talking about AKC, SV, or FCI? Different > dogs are going to be show potential for the different venues. From > the breeders you've listed, I'm guessing you're talking about SV, and > high lines rather than working lines. All puppies should be free of > diseases, of course, but what I think you really mean is pups from > parents tested for genetic diseases, which has nothing to do with a > vet evaluation of the pup. Here again, you need to learn about "a" > stamps vs. OFA ratings. I gather you're looking at GSD Quarterly or > similar mags. To evaluate the ads you're reading, you need to learn > how to read a Breed Survey. Those blurbs you're seeing under stud and > litter announcements have very specific language judges use when > evaluating a dog for breeding and you need to know what the terms > mean. You also need to adjust your expectations a bit. Rather than > thinking about a 2-6 month old pup, think about getting on a waiting > list for a planned breeding. Many good breedings are fully reserved > long before the puppies are whelped. You also need to revisit the > idea of a show potential pup if you don't intend to show. It isn't > just a matter of the price differential - there's no incentive for a > breeder to sell a pup that could enhance their reputation into a home > where he/she won't be shown. > > >>I came up with an initial list collected from magazines. Any comments >>about them? I provide their websites below: >> >>fleischerheim.com >>goldbergshepherds.com >>kirchenwald.com >>jerland.com/shepherds/index.html >>www.hausbrezel.com >>www.kolendakennels.com > > > Of those choices, my top choice would be Kirchenwald, assuming that > what you are indeed looking for is German show lines. But it would be > helpful to know where you are located to give you recommendations that > you can more easily investigate in person. For example, Kirchenwald > is great if you're in PA, but if you're in CA you'd be better off > looking at someone like www.valkyre.com. You need to do some local, > in depth work. Of the kennel websites you listed, there is a huge > difference in type, reputation, and operation. And no, I'm not about > to tell you which ones I dislike in a public newsgroup - I have to > live in the GSD world. You'll have to dig a little deeper on your > own. > > Lynn K. TOTE@dog-play.com In rec.pets.dogs.behavior CC45 <CC45@noname1.com> wrote: > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the names of > breeders and some comments about specific breeders. Nothing else. > I collect the lists from a variety of sources: magazines, different > discussion groups, various dog clubs, etc. The key is variety, not > just one source but many. Nothing else. I do not want to discuss how With more that 43,000 dogs registered with just AKC that is not a useful goal. > a breeder will be selected because this is WELL BEYOND THE SCOPE > of this post. For your information, the dog will be my close > companion for the next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER > will sell me a crappy pup. The more you write the more obvious you make it that you are an easy mark. Since you don't want information in response to obvious confusions on your part you won't get it. You will remain willfully and blissfully misinformed. This is your choice. Watching you attempt to get a good dog with your confused criteria makes me think of the guy trying to push his stalled car off the tracks with a freight train approaching full speed ahead. When the stubborn won't listen the inevitable result is *kabooom* > Early on, each contacted breeder will get > ONE THING STRAIGHT - if he lies to me then a lot of bad things may > happen to him. In reality, those who lie are too stupid to pass my > investigation early on so they will not even get through initial > screening anyway. Your investigation will be pretty useless if you don't know the meanings of the terms you are using or the implications of your "requirements". And there is no shortage of people who have already recognized that your self assurance matches your lack of knowledge. You may very well get exactly what you demanded but it is likely to be very different from what you actually want. However, there is one good thing about yuor attitude. Your ego will not permit you to admit a mistake. So you will convince yourself that the dog is what you wanted. So you may not get the right match, but probably the dog won't suffer for it. A point of note. This is a discussion group, not an advice column. The priviledge of the anarchy of usenet is anyone gets to respond and you can listen or ignore or respond just as your heart desires. -- Diane Blackman http://dog-play.com/ http://dog-play.com/shop2.html Lynn K. CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in message news:<404e47e0.273369125@news-server.cfl.rr.com>... > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. > This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked > only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general > reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments > are just a waste of time. Geez - waste of time is right. Hint - there were 21 breeders at our local GSD club meeting tonight, all of whom health test, show, and have signed the club's Breeder Code of Ethics. Do you really expect GSD people to give you hundreds of breeder contacts or think you can research them all, when you can't even narrow down what you are looking for? And won't tolerate any suggestion that you do so? I'm not going to pick your next puppy for you, and in fact recommend that you look into a nice Lab rescue. Lynn K. m_icha_el Rocky wrote: > CC45 said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds: > > >>Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the >>names of >> breeders and some comments about specific breeders. >> Nothing else. > > > Michael? Is that you? No, you frigging moron. Why do you suppose that everyone who gets jumped on by you and the rest of the powder puff perpetual pms hypocow piranaha posse is me? Pretty soon it will be just you and the girls and nobody new will bother to come here and waste their time. I'm wasting my time here less and less so you'll have to find another boogie man. Go back to chatting with the rest of the girls and not having a brain. I'm busy producing videos and studying for my MCSE 2003. I hope that heelps this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com Lynn K. Scott <scotty@2extremes.nett> wrote in message news:<404E91BB.7040202@2extremes.nett>... > CC45 wrote: > > >> > >> > >> > > Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example > > > >http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...%2012-16-03.jpg > > > >This one would make my list as fas as the looks. > > > > > > > > > I may be mistaken, but I believe that particular color combination and > pattern, black and red with a rather small saddle, is sought after by > those who show their dogs. Not really, but it is true that the black/red, plush coat is pretty common in Ger. high lines. In fact, the picture is of a high lines dog, and not a very good one, at that (head, chest, banana back, short croup). Lynn K. TOTE@dog-play.com In rec.pets.dogs.breeds Rocky <2dogs@rocky-dog.com> wrote: > CC45 said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds: >> Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the >> names of >> breeders and some comments about specific breeders. >> Nothing else. > Michael? Is that you? Actually reminds me more of Steve P of the Akitas. -- Diane Blackman http://dog-play.com/ http://dog-play.com/shop2.html m_icha_el PS, I wouldn't buy a GSD from *any* breeder. (no offense to my fans out there who own German Shepherds and love them) In fact, you couldn't pay me to take a dog from a breed with so many genetic problems built in. "Reputable" backyard, puppy mill, whatever. No thanks. And if someone is telling me that they are "reputable" because they do "health testing" it only means that the breed is too far gone for me to even consider. A breed where you have to do "health and genetic testing" (which don't work anyway) is a breed or population which is already a genetic quagmire and not something I want any part of. But I do have a mixed breed dog with some GSD in him and he's quite an all around companion/ watchdog and budding souperstar. http://dogtv.com/kwame_chazz_spring03.jpg He didn't cost me a thing. He has no heelth problems and I did absolutely ZERO research or work and used no effort whatsoever in finding him. Somebody else tied him to a tree and left him because they could not handle him. then he quickly became the star of my upcoming puppy training video which will either be called "radical puppy raising" or "pirate this puppy training video!" (tm) probably the latter, featuring radical puppy (and hell) raising video from 1996 to 2002. His name, of course, is Kwame Brown. http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm http://dogtv.com/kdown.rm this is michael reporting live... http://dogtv.com m_icha_el wrote: > > > Rocky wrote: > >> CC45 said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds: >> >> >>> Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the >>> names of breeders and some comments about specific breeders. >>> Nothing else. >> >> >> >> Michael? Is that you? > > > > > No, you frigging moron. > > Why do you suppose that everyone who gets > jumped on by you and the rest of the powder > puff perpetual pms hypocow piranaha posse is > me? > > Pretty soon it will be just you and the girls > and nobody new will bother to come here and > waste their time. I'm wasting my time here > less and less so you'll have to find another > boogie man. > > Go back to chatting with the rest of the girls > and not having a brain. I'm busy producing > videos and studying for my MCSE 2003. > > > I hope that heelps > > this is michael > reporting live... > http://dogtv.com > Leslie Weinberg Lynn, You sound like you are a dedicated and honest "dog" person, but don't assure people that just because a breeder has signed a code of ethics that he or she is "ethical". I have seen one too many here in NY who is not - he has burned people and his own dogs by careless breeding and handling tactics. If a top breeder and judge can give you a bill of sale on a piece of scrap paper, refuse to take back a severe problem dog because he states "If he can't be shown, I don't want him", and he is leaving his pups in a run by themselves for months with a modicum of attention involving feeding and cleaning up after them, I hardly think that he would qualify as ethical, and yet, yes, he has definitely signed a code of ethics, and he does show - so what? Lynn K. wrote: > CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in message news:<404e47e0.273369125@news-server.cfl.rr.com>... > >> Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. >> This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked >> only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general >> reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments >> are just a waste of time. > > > Geez - waste of time is right. Hint - there were 21 breeders at our > local GSD club meeting tonight, all of whom health test, show, and > have signed the club's Breeder Code of Ethics. Do you really expect > GSD people to give you hundreds of breeder contacts or think you can > research them all, when you can't even narrow down what you are > looking for? And won't tolerate any suggestion that you do so? > > I'm not going to pick your next puppy for you, and in fact recommend > that you look into a nice Lab rescue. > > Lynn K. TOTE@dog-play.com In rec.pets.dogs.breeds Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> wrote: > Lynn, > You sound like you are a dedicated and honest "dog" person, but don't > assure people that just because a breeder has signed a code of ethics > that he or she is "ethical". Where did she say that? Where did she even imply that? She talked of 21 breeders who met checklist type criteria but said absolutely nothing of their actual qualities. That is because the whole point of her response was to note the futility of collecting breeder names based on such ill defined criteria as proposed by the OP. While signing a code of ethics is no indication of an ethical breeder it at least starts you with a breeder who has heard of ethical practices and knows what they are. Many GSD don't have enough knowledge to even know what responsible breeding entails. It helps to first identify those who know, then focus on those who do. -- Diane Blackman http://dog-play.com/ http://dog-play.com/shop2.html Leslie Weinberg Problem is that you can focus and weed out and listen to recommendations and still wind up with major problems. This last time I not only researched breeders, I asked to speak to some of the people who bought their dogs, just to find out how they were health wise, personality wise, etc., and because of my horrid experience with Mr. "Big Shot" and a dog with idiopathic aggression, I washed my hands of the GSD breed I had loved so much for 30 years and got a Golden Retriever. TOTE@dog-play.com wrote: > In rec.pets.dogs.breeds Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> wrote: > >>Lynn, > > >>You sound like you are a dedicated and honest "dog" person, but don't >>assure people that just because a breeder has signed a code of ethics >>that he or she is "ethical". > > > Where did she say that? Where did she even imply that? She talked of 21 > breeders who met checklist type criteria but said absolutely nothing of > their actual qualities. That is because the whole point of her response > was to note the futility of collecting breeder names based on such ill > defined criteria as proposed by the OP. > > While signing a code of ethics is no indication of an ethical breeder > it at least starts you with a breeder who has heard of ethical practices > and knows what they are. Many GSD don't have enough knowledge to even > know what responsible breeding entails. It helps to first identify those > who know, then focus on those who do. > The Puppy Wizard You're full of crap you goddamned mental case. "Sunflower" <sunflwrNOSPAM@midsouth.rr.com> wrote in message news:Jqt3c.22530$iy.2905@fe2.columbus.rr.com... > > "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message > news:404e47e0.273369125@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > > On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:35:03 ? (UTC), "Sue" > > <nospamback@btinternet.com> wrote: > > > > >I don't have GSDs but I would not be prepared to let a top show potential > > >puppy go to a pet home. > > >I think what you want is a near miss -a pup bred for show that isn't > quite a > > >ch prospect. Often you wouldn't know the difference and an also ran from > a > > >good breeder is probably far better than show potential fron some > breeders. > > >Have you contacted the shepherd clubs? > > >Sue > > > > > > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. > > This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I asked > > only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general > > reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other comments > > are just a waste of time. There are plenty of books that already > > include cute advices and general comments and I do not need them here. > > This is a specific inquiry asking for specific responses. > > > > > > You know, if you're this arrogant with a reptuable breeder, they'll rightly > send you packing. You obviously do not know enough about GSD's to consider > owning a show prospect, and the real breeders will pick up on this right > away. They won't even sell you a pet quality puppy. Puppy millers and > backyard breeders will sell you just any old thing because all they will > care about is making a buck. And, you won't be able to tell the difference. > All you seem to care about is whether or not they have a website to make it > easy for you to find a dog. Finding a good dog should NOT be easy, if you > really want a high quality dog. You'll need to travel to kennels all over > the place and to shows all over the place. And, that's just for the > education you'll need and the contacts that are available there. When you > know enough and have enough contacts in the breed club, only then will you > learn of potential pairings down the road that *might* lead to the dog > you're in search of. No reputable breeder breeds a litter unless they have > all of the pups spoken for in advance, and if you learn enough and curb that > arrogant and insulting behavior, you just might be lucky enough to get a dog > that fits your "requirements" within the next year or two. > > The Puppy Wizard Bye bye! "badgirl" <chgobadgirlspamtrap@comcast.net> wrote in message news:Vru3c.530499$na.1285291@attbi_s04... > > > "CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message > > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has not been asked for. > > This is a specific inquiry. There are general reqs listed and I > asked > > only for two things: name of breeder(s) that meets these general > > reqs or a comment on the breeder already provided. All other > comments > > are just a waste of time. There are plenty of books that already > > include cute advices and general comments and I do not need them > here. > > This is a specific inquiry asking for specific responses. > > > > Don't be such a prick > > dogsnus CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com: >> > Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example > > http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...heim%20side%201 > 2-16-03.jpg Well, I own an offspring of Fleisherheim's line that looks very much like what you're showing here. I *could* tell you some things germane to your request. However,I can't be bothered with giving advice not asked for, nor paying attention to terms assumed to carry precise meanings. Get a Mac. Terri The Puppy Wizard Scott <scotty@2extremes.nett> wrote in message news:<404E7858.2020202@2extremes.nett>... > CC45 wrote: > > > > > > > If you misunderstood any term and you provided a > > > >wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET > >ANY FAILING GRADE. > > > > > > > http://leerburg.com/table.htm "LEARNING PHASE but they really drop the ball in the CORREECTION and DISTRACTION PHASE. Classes that focus on CLICKER TRAINING and training classes that focus on owners using HEAD HALTERS (Halties) or instructors that are against physical corrections are examples of this. Many of the pet warehouse training classes fall into this category - they want to appease the tree huggers and PETA terrorists. When a dog has not had a solid foundation in all three phases it will not mind all the time. When these dogs are faced with a high level of distraction they ignore commands. People who only take their dog to puppy classes also miss the training on corrections. The only place a puppy should be corrected is for not coming. If they don't COME when it called it could result in a dead dog. Puppies should not get serious corrections until they are 6 to 8 months old," ed frawley, mental case, dog abuser. The Puppy Wizard HOWEDY lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, javagsd@yahoo.com (Lynn K.) wrote in message news:<37cd72a9.0403092212.41324b8b@posting.google.com>... > CC45@noname1.com (CC45) wrote in message news:<404e47e0.273369125@news-server.cfl.rr.com>... > > > > Please, refrain yourself from advice that has > > not been asked for. You mean unless it's pertinent, like your mental health case history and your record as a successful SAR dog trainer and shelter dog Angel Of Death. > > This is a specific inquiry. The OP gotta know he's askin liars dog abusers cowards and long term active incurable MENTAL PATIENTS and ASYLUM ESCAPEES. > > There are general reqs listed and I asked > > only for two things: name of breeder(s) The OP means ETHICKAL BREEDERS. That would preclude any breeder who'd sell to a dog abuser liar or mental case. > > that meets these general reqs or a comment > > on the breeder already provided. All other > > comments are just a waste of time. > > Geez - waste of time is right. Yeah. Like your SELECTIVELY BRED HAND PICKED and TESTED and meticulHOWESLY TRAINED SAR dog JIVE. > Hint - there were 21 breeders at our > local GSD club meeting tonight, You mean ETHICKAL breeders. > all of whom health test, show, and have signed > the club's Breeder Code of Ethics. You mean the club you are a member in good staning. > Do you really expect GSD people to give you > hundreds of breeder contacts Like you investigated pryor to buying your SAR dog JIVE? > or think you can research them all, Like you done? > when you can't even narrow down what > you are looking for? You mean, like a SAR dog or sumpthin specific? Like your SAR dog JIVE, for EXXXAMPLE? > And won't tolerate any suggestion that you do so? Suggestions from the likes of you, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn? > I'm not going to pick your next puppy for you, That's fortunate cause you failed to find a workin SAR dog after all your effort. > and in fact recommend that you look into a > nice Lab rescue. You mean someWON who takes perfectly good dogs HOWETA perfectly good HOWESES and sells them to someWON as slightly used with a few behavior problems they'll have to tolerate? > Lynn K. lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction. - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar. Lynn K. WORDS OF WISDOM from our own Lynn Kosmakos 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day For Twenty Years I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM "I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day. I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn more, while happily sharing pertinent information I have learned. But if I were ever to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other reader of this group would be rightfully outraged." "Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn the right to participate in by observing the easily understood rules and contributing to in constructive ways." Lynn K. ----------------------------------------- You suppose the OP will be lookin to get a nice kitty kat to keep his new puppy company?: "You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn. lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs: 'This Article Is Something We've Put Together For SF GSD Rescue' From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosmakos@home.com) Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats Date: 1999/11/20 ginger57@my-deja.com wrote: > How can I get him to quit chasing the cats. Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K. "Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was being used." 8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is why you have the dog muzzled). If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your voice and the collar. This is important - the correction must be physically very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need to be corrected at all)." Lynn K. wrote: "I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in one shelter.) But their ability to set their own schedules and duties causes a great deal of scheduling overhead. And it takes effort and thought to ensure that volunteers get the meaningful experience that they work for. Someone has to be responsible for that Volunteer Program, and it is best done by a non-volunteer." Lynn K. --------------------------------- "I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition. Should I have refused to groom them? Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter." Lynn K. Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message news:<04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>... > >>Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true. > >>In the posts below you take responsibility for making those > >> calls. > > >>In your post above, you state you do not make those calls. > >>Which one is it? > : > > Nope, Bob. Mikey isn't a stupid man and he > > knows well the difference between: > > > > 1. A non-shelter rescue group that occasionally > > has to put a dog down for health or temperament > > reasons. (Yep, I'm involved with that.) > : > > 2. A trainer hired to evaluate a dog who might > > determine the dog is potentially dangerous. > > (Yes, again, I've been in that position.) > : > > 3. Public pounds that routinely kill stray and > > abandoned animals. (Nope, I only pull animals > > from those pounds into the private rescue programs.) > > ----------------------------------- LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined ----------------------------------------- > But I think what Lois was referring to was the fact that > Darlene actually stated at some point that she was > bipolar--and, IIRC, that meds did not work for her--so she > was prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden > enthusiasms.. "It wasn't that meds didn't work for her - she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember a comment she made about scarey side effects of Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of any side effect is far less frightening than the very real dangers of life without it." Lynn K. ----------------------------------------- LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND ---------------------------------------- From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosmakos@home.com) Subject: Re: Where is Darlene? Date: 1999/09/03 BoxHill wrote: > I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read > "The Unquiet Mind"? Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of watered down for the mass market, if you know what I mean. There's really quite a lot of good work out there and decent research. Thank God. Lynn K. --------------------------------------- MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!" MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR... YOU DO THE MATH "What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly, 'I take anti-depressives'" ------------------------------------- From: Gary & lois Edwards (garyl@bmi.net) Subject: Re: Where is Darlene? Date: 1999/09/02 BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS "I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly, "I take anti-depressives". Back when I started taking them it was seen as something shameful. If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say, "You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have any pain meds.....you could become addicted." The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's father locked her in her room back in the twenties because she was simple. A shame that medication probably would have helped her live a normal life. No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's personality, she has a way of making grandiose plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone with problems could be counted on to be irresponsible." Lois E. ------------------------------------- > >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he took > >> posts from two different people, > >> took pieces of them out of context, > >> cobbled them together, > >> then added his own words "Neatly," and "Smartly." > >>and a fake signature. "sinofabitch" instead of sionnach. > >> Which is exactly what he did. > >> The actual quote is misleading > >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's > >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless. > >Here's Jerry's version > > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My > > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder, > > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My > > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, > > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into > > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And > > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch. > >Here's yours; > > "I dropped the leash, threw my > > right arm over the Lab's shoulder, > > grabbed her opposite foot with my > > left hand, rolled her on her side, > > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and > > nipped her ear. > > --Sara Sionnach BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! When are you gonna FIGGER IT HOWET, People? amy lying frosty dahl continues: "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained require much more frequent and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done, This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply" BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE... "Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch" OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER. "You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl. > to avoid (or minimize) harm from a (potentially redeemable) > dog who attacks them. *Not* routine training. lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction. - if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar. Lynn K. > Apparently, however, some newcomers to this group > have got the impression, from reading Jerry's rantings > and misquotations, that it is something that many of us > do every day, for the fun of it. "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie. captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping Sound To The Dog." And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder, expert trainer, discoverer of cannibalism in Labradors. You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT? "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl, discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors. Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS? "John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the rump with a training stick while holding him partially off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back to the line and cast him back to the dummies." The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE. We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL... > Another instance. I once published an article containing > the phrase, "tougher, less tractable dogs may require you > to progress to striking them more sharply." This followed > a description of a "symbolic" tap under the chin to ommunicate, Cites please? You tend to CONfHOWEND your methods and motives for HURTIN dogs when you're not REALLY HURTIN them. You was talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a stick for your stick fetch, not smackin IT under his chin so he can get a sHOWEND distraction. > without hurting the dog, Don't MATTER if you HURT the dog or NOT. The dog ain't gonna APPRECIATE you for it. > that the trainer disapproves Seems the trainer is blamin the dog cause he couldn't TRAIN the dog to DO what he wants. > of the dog's spitting out a dummy which the > dog has already been trained to accept. You mean when you're choking and pinchin his ear. captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping Sound To The Dog." > The context is that if the dog is among the huge majority > who try to cooperate, the correction is unnecessary. That so? The Puppy Wizard sez you're a liar. > Jerry Howe has posted that sentence myriad times > on this newsgroup, not in the context in which I wrote it, Don't matter WHAT the CON-TEXT is when you're beatin and shockin a dog and denyin you're HURTIN IT or you wouldn't be jerk and chokin and shockin an beatin IT in the first place if you didn't INTEND TO HURT.. > but attached to another statement so that it sounds > as though I am advocating beating a dog with a stick. IMAGINE? >There is a lot more that could be said about the > context of my article, Yeah. That's HOWE COME your pal sindy sadist mooreon doesn't post here noMOORE. She didn't wanna get bagged for lyin like you do. Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply" > but I'll only mention a couple of points. Let's discuss every thing. Your STICK FETCH. You know, the WON you changed three times to suite your false defenses and CONfHOWEND it with chin chuckin to make it SHOWEND like you're just beatin the dog with your hand. > That article has been published in The Retriever > Journal and on my website, *never* (by me or with > my permission) on this newsgroup. SHAAAZZZAAAMMM!!! >In the context of common practices of retriever >training, which operate on a paradigm of "teaching" >mainly through force, You mean HURT the dog to make IT hunt. > the procedure is considerably more humane You mean beatin the dog with a stick and pinchin and twistin his ears and toes and shocking and jerking and choking IT. > than any alternative You mean, like TRAININ IT? > I have read (that actually gets the job done). You mean a method of trainin that WORKS? Well, you COULD learn HOWE to train a dog then you wouldn't NEED to HURT IT. >No, it is not perfect, and John (husband) and >I are constantly working to find ways to improve it by >making it less stressful to the dogs. Yeah. You even tried and miserably failed clicker trainin. See "clicker project fizzles." > But it is offered as an improvement You mean beatin an shockin a dog is a IMPROVEMENT. > to what else is available to the novice attempting > to train a retriever. You think novice trainers should be HURTIN their dogs on the advice of a trainer who sez hurtin the dog to train IT is an IMPROVEMENT? >More context, in case you are still reading. You make a good point. AnyWON readin your pathos is either as NUTS as The Puppy Wizard or is workin on a master's degree in criminal insanity. > The procedure described in the article takes up > a very short time, a small proportion of a retriever's > training, Compared to the amHOWENT of jerkin and chokin it gets to learn to hunt? "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM" mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web. You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY??? > most of which is built around the positive > reinforcement of completing retrieves. You mean like table work? Or tying IT to a tree and beatin IT with at stick to make it "REALLY DIG HOWET?" > (Some trainers complete the task in one week.) Takes you six months to train a dog IF you get LUCKY. > It "opens the door" You mean the beatin dogs with sticks an twistin an pinchin their ears and shockin them. > for the dogs to do the work they were bred > to love and to accompany their owners hunting- You mean instead of askin the dog if he wants to go huntin? > -and in such a way that their owners aren't > constantly losing their tempers! Tempers? You mean, when you go HOWET to ENJOY a day of murderin some innocent critters? >The force used in the procedure is *not* typical >of the dog's whole course of training nor the treatment >the dog receives while working. "REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS." Ain't that correct, lyin frosty dahl. >If you want to read the original, go to You coulda just copied the pertinent text here.... >http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html That's NICE. The PERTINENT TEXT is not on that page... >Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 >Oak Hill Kennel & Handling email: amy@oakhillkennel.com >Pinehurst, NC 28370 >===================== After a gentle reminder she finallly gave the correct link: > 2. I thought there was a link to Part II of the article, but > I re-read Part I after posting the link and there is not. > If you want to read Part II, you can click on the link > to the Library page and find it there, or just go to > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html . >-- >Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 >Oak Hill Kennel & Handling >================================ TOTE@dog-play.com In rec.pets.dogs.behavior Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> wrote: > Problem is that you can focus and weed out and listen to recommendations > and still wind up with major problems. Of course you can. But you can only do what you can do. It helps, however, to be prepared for the red flags. You could have had the same experience without seeing any red flags. But since switching breeds won't solve the problem let me identify some of the caution signals in your story. The biggest and most important was the lack of a proper contract. Like the code of ethics issue the existence of a contract is not a guarantee of a responsible breeder. But the LACK of a proper contract is a huge red flag. That's because any breeder who has been around a while knows you can't even rely on friendship to protect your dogs. So if the breeder cares about the dogs, and their future they aren't going anywhere without a proper contract. Two cautionary flags (1) reliance on a person's status as indication of ethics / responsibility (2) number of dogs bred. Like the ethics issue that someone is a breed judge does help you assess their knowledge level. So it is not irrelevant. But that's all it does, is assess their knowledge level. It is not useful in assessing whether they actually care about the breed, nor the dogs. People ofen confuse reputable and responsible. When they seek people based on how big they are in the dog world, they very often simply accept that as a sign of a good breeder. Sadly that is simply not so. So people are big in the dog world because they have the money and the ego. But quite ofen someone very active in breed activities is a good bet because they are investing their time and energy into the breed. So I'd look more at what they DO for the breed than who they are. And the more dogs bred is not a good sign. There is a balance between breeding enough to have a positive influence on the breed and breeding so many that it becomes apparent that the breeding and the winning and the selling is the goal, not the best interests of the dog. If I were faced with a breeder with hundreds of dogs out there I would not view that as a positive sign. > This last time I not only > researched breeders, I asked to speak to some of the people who bought > their dogs, How many of these dogs did you actually meet? The reason for actually going to shows and competitions is to see the actual dogs. Once you've focussed in on a handful of breeders you not only want to see their own dogs, but what their dogs have produced and what's behind them. > just to find out how they were health wise, personality > wise, etc., and because of my horrid experience with Mr. "Big Shot" and > a dog with idiopathic aggression, I washed my hands of the GSD breed I > had loved so much for 30 years and got a Golden Retriever. That won't fix the problem. There are big shot breeders who ignore the propert temperament of the Golden Retriever. Personally if you really want to get the best chances for a good dog find a breeder who you like as a person, and whom you won't mind having a long term relationship with. Because that's what you can expect from a breeder who actually cares about their dogs. -- Diane Blackman http://dog-play.com/ http://dog-play.com/shop2.html William Clodius CC45 wrote: > On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 15:04:37 -0800, Scott <scotty@2extremes.nett> > wrote: > > >I am just curious: Why do you want show lines and not working lines? > > > > I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many > pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise > meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, > inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience > training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working > line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter > of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. > <snip> I view "I do not want to get into semantics here" as a red flag. Someone who does not worry about semantics, does not worry about conveying (or getting) accurate information. Given the large number of GSD breeders, to have a reasonably small set of breeders to investigate you need to be precise about what you want. If you can't be more precise then you probably have not thought enough about what you want in a dog, and in that case a GSD (or dog) of any kind may be inappropriate for you. Humpty Dumptying will get you nothing but a lot of frustration. If you don't want to be viewed as a troll, you need to be much clearer about what you want, stop complaining when you get undesired information, and stop objecting when others ask you to be clearer. -- ------------------------------------------------------------- William B. Clodius ------------------------------------------------------------- Rocky Diane said in rec.pets.dogs.health: >> Michael? Is that you? > > Actually reminds me more of Steve P of the Akitas. True, but CC45 sounds somewhat like some of Michael's past trolling attempts. -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog. Darby Wiggins CC45: If you don't like what info in being provided to you (which i might add would be very much to your benefit, esp. considering the breed of dog you want) then stop posting. Obviously, we're not going *give* you what *you* want...names of breeders. So, since its been made more than clear that we're not going to assist you this way, log off and go elsewhere. Why keep insisting on your way? People on NG's have a right to talk about or not talk about an issue. There are no bylaws that require us to provide information for every post or to answer every post in a specific way. Clearly, the majority of people here have chosen not to discuss this issue with you for a variety of reasons (the first being that you have no clue what it is that your getting into by purchasing a GSD...they can be a mess of a breed if not breed properly) so, take a hint and just walk away and think whatever you want about this group, good or bad. Darby CC45 wrote: > On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:44:48 GMT, Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> > wrote: > > >Be VERY careful. I had four GSDs which were wonderful and then I got #5, > >from not only a reputable breeder here in NY, but a well-known and well > >regarded specialty JUDGE. The dog was not let go till four months of > >age due to his wanting to make sure the dog was NOT show potential, and > >he was so vicious we worked with him for two years before we threw in > >the towel and let the trainer take him. After several trips to the > >breeder during that time, begging him to take the dog back - no refund, > >no replacement, just "please" take him, we found that all his litters > >were isolated in runs and he did not want anyone near them - they were > >not socialized, they were not handled. With a dog like a GSD, as well > >as all others, you need to handle and socialize pups or you will not > >have one you want to live with. You need to not only check out > >reputation, but go to the kennels and see how the dogs are being raised. > > > > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the names of > breeders and some comments about specific breeders. Nothing else. > I collect the lists from a variety of sources: magazines, different > discussion groups, various dog clubs, etc. The key is variety, not > just one source but many. Nothing else. I do not want to discuss how > a breeder will be selected because this is WELL BEYOND THE SCOPE > of this post. For your information, the dog will be my close > companion for the next 13 years and there is no way ANY BREEDER > will sell me a crappy pup. Early on, each contacted breeder will get > ONE THING STRAIGHT - if he lies to me then a lot of bad things may > happen to him. In reality, those who lie are too stupid to pass my > investigation early on so they will not even get through initial > screening anyway. > > >CC45 wrote: > >> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:17:05 GMT, "Christy" > >> <easily.amused@gtenospam.net> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>"CC45" <CC45@noname1.com> wrote in message > >>>news:404e5f46.279359359@news-server.cfl.rr.com... > >>> > >>> > >>>>>I do not want to get into semantics here. It seems like too many > >>>>>pay too much attention to terms assumed to carry some precise > >>>>>meanings. By a show potential, I meant proportionately built, > >>>>>inteligent enough to complete advanced obedience > >>>>>training, athletic enough to complete endurance tests, etc. Working > >>>>>line is great too although I do not plan my dog to work, as a matter > >>>>>of fact I would like my dog to have a "working" look. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Just to make sure what is "working" look to me, here is an example > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>http://www.fleischerheim.com/images...m%20side%2012-1 > >>>6-03.jpg > >>> > >>>>This one would make my list as fas as the looks. > >>>> > >>> > >>>You won't find the kind of dog you are looking for unless you are very > >>>specific with your requirements. When you say "show potential GSD" you bring > >>>to mind a very different type of dog than the example provided (which to my > >>>eye is a very unattractive GSD, especially the head.) > >>>However a working line GSD is likely to be a very difficult dog for the > >>>average owner, especially if you don't plan to work with the dog. You may > >>>find a low drive dog from a working breeder, however. > >>>I second the advice from the poster who said to avoid the pet dog magazine > >>>ads - anyone who can afford to regularly advertise in those publications is > >>>probably breeding far too many dogs and charging huge amounts in order to > >>>pay for those ads. Better to seek out the publications of the fancy - either > >>>the show world or the working dog world - as well as the breed clubs. > >>>Since you probably will ignore all of the above anyway, I'll give you one > >>>breeder that may suit your demands. I know nothing more about this breeder > >>>than an acquaintance acquired a puppy from them and she is very pleased with > >>>her ("Raven" on the satisfied customers page.) You'll have to do further > >>>research on your own. > >>>http://www.vonfalconer.com/index.html > >>> > >>>Christy > >>> > >>> > >> > >> Thanks for the name of one breeder. As far as the rest of your > >> response, you are making too many false assumptions that even lack > >> any logic. In my original post, I provided very generic reqs using > >> loose terminology. You suddenly adhered to your *own* meaning of every > >> term as if it were a gospel and confused it with a request to find me > >> a dog. I did not ask to find anything. I just asked you to provide THE > >> NAME OF ANY BREEDER that meets the very basic reqs. I did not ask you > >> to disect every term. If you misunderstood any term and you provided a > >> > >> wrong breeder NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. YOU WOULD NOT GET > >> ANY FAILING GRADE. > >> > > Leslie Weinberg That's exactly what I did with my Golden. Met with breeders, visited a lot of dogs. My dog's breeder is a wonderful woman - caring and responsible - and I have had an ongoing relationship with her by phone and occasional visit for almost six years. She is not a "top" breeder and I can't say that a lot of her progeny have made it "big", but she does make sure all dogs are OFAd, certified by cardiologist and opthamologist, and on the rare occasion a dog has developed a problem, that dog has never again been bred. Her dogs are born and raised in the house with a lot of handling by the children. That is the one thing I insist on these days after seeing those poor little GSDs clawing at the links of their run, begging for attention which they never got. Why did I change breeds? Simply a major emotional response to trauma! There is no experience to rival having your loving GSD kiss your face, and then. as though someone turned on a switch, bare his teeth, and growl and bark and threaten. Then of course, came the time he actually bit one of our friends during the same kind of behavior pattern. After two years of this, you become a little unnerved, and I got to the point where I just wanted a great big mellow "mush" of a dog. I had to admit, that after thirty years of GSDs, with no fear, only love, and laughing when people crossed to the other side of the street when they saw a Shepherd approaching, I had developed the same fear of the breed. Sad, but true. In addition, at around the same time, I was hearing about other GSD experiences which were pretty negative, and I began to think that all the work and planning which had gone into improving the breed over the last twenty or thirty years to take the reputation of the breed back to a state of "glory" had somehow become reversed, and the breeding practices had disintegrated to the point where some pretty bad dogs were being bred over and over. I still stare wistfully at a GSD on the street - really miss the breed. Love my Golden, but there is something about the look in a GSDs eyes, and the nobility of the breed which does not exist in most other breeds. TOTE@dog-play.com wrote: > In rec.pets.dogs.behavior Leslie Weinberg <artsoul@nyc.rr.com> wrote: > >>Problem is that you can focus and weed out and listen to recommendations >> and still wind up with major problems. > > > Of course you can. But you can only do what you can do. It helps, > however, to be prepared for the red flags. You could have had the same > experience without seeing any red flags. But since switching breeds won't > solve the problem let me identify some of the caution signals in your > story. The biggest and most important was the lack of a proper contract. > Like the code of ethics issue the existence of a contract is not a > guarantee of a responsible breeder. But the LACK of a proper contract is a > huge red flag. That's because any breeder who has been around a while > knows you can't even rely on friendship to protect your dogs. So if the > breeder cares about the dogs, and their future they aren't going anywhere > without a proper contract. > > Two cautionary flags (1) reliance on a person's status as indication of > ethics / responsibility (2) number of dogs bred. > > Like the ethics issue that someone is a breed judge does help you assess > their knowledge level. So it is not irrelevant. But that's all it does, > is assess their knowledge level. It is not useful in assessing whether > they actually care about the breed, nor the dogs. People ofen confuse > reputable and responsible. When they seek people based on how big they > are in the dog world, they very often simply accept that as a sign of a > good breeder. Sadly that is simply not so. So people are big in the dog > world because they have the money and the ego. But quite ofen someone > very active in breed activities is a good bet because they are investing > their time and energy into the breed. So I'd look more at what they DO > for the breed than who they are. > > And the more dogs bred is not a good sign. There is a balance between > breeding enough to have a positive influence on the breed and breeding so > many that it becomes apparent that the breeding and the winning and the > selling is the goal, not the best interests of the dog. If I were faced > with a breeder with hundreds of dogs out there I would not view that as a > positive sign. > > >>This last time I not only >>researched breeders, I asked to speak to some of the people who bought >>their dogs, > > > How many of these dogs did you actually meet? The reason for actually > going to shows and competitions is to see the actual dogs. Once you've > focussed in on a handful of breeders you not only want to see their own > dogs, but what their dogs have produced and what's behind them. > > >>just to find out how they were health wise, personality >>wise, etc., and because of my horrid experience with Mr. "Big Shot" and >>a dog with idiopathic aggression, I washed my hands of the GSD breed I >>had loved so much for 30 years and got a Golden Retriever. > > > That won't fix the problem. There are big shot breeders who ignore the > propert temperament of the Golden Retriever. > > Personally if you really want to get the best chances for a good dog find > a breeder who you like as a person, and whom you won't mind having a long > term relationship with. Because that's what you can expect from a breeder > who actually cares about their dogs. > nickname I think it's the fence guy again ("escaping shepard"). Seems remarkably similar in temperament. "Rocky" <2dogs@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message news:Xns94A7CCA4AA77Baustralianshepherdca@rocky-dog.com... > CC45 said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds: > > > Where you people get your logic from? Here I asked for the > > names of > > breeders and some comments about specific breeders. > > Nothing else. > > Michael? Is that you? > > -- > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"At Last... Dog Training That's Guaranteed To Teach You How To STOP your Dog's Behavior Problems Quickly And Easily!"   Learn How To Quickly And Easily Train Your Doggie To Be Well Behaved At All Times

Powered by: Search Engine Indexer and vBulletin v2.3.0
Copyright © 2000 - 2002, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited